C-101CC September release?

[rrohde]

last I heard was a press release relating to the sacking of the EFM coder.

 

Also the same coder responsible for the hawk, expect delays people as these things happen

 

In cases like this, I really wish that ED would take over development of things where a special skillset is needed that might be beyond that of the 3rd party developer, e.g. EFM modelling.

[peyvolt]

Hi all:

We are working hard now with CC version, and AFM, every day , 7 days of the week, we are trying to release CC version as soon as possible, the problem is that, CC version is similar to EB, but many things change, hope you will see good news soon

[kontiuka]

^

Thanks for the update.

[grunf]

Hi all:

We are working hard now with CC version, and AFM, every day , 7 days of the week, we are trying to release CC version as soon as possible, the problem is that, CC version is similar to EB, but many things change, hope you will see good news soon

Keep up the good work, and keep us posted. :thumbup:

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

Hi all:

We are working hard now with CC version, and AFM, every day , 7 days of the week, we are trying to release CC version as soon as possible, the problem is that, CC version is similar to EB, but many things change, hope you will see good news soon

 

Will there be any room in the cockpit of the C101-CC for my spanish beauty? :joystick: :smilewink:

 

[Aginor]

Thanks for the update.

[azm]

It`s very important to know that things are moving forward, thanks!

[JMasterFlash]

Hi all:

We are working hard now with CC version, and AFM, every day , 7 days of the week, we are trying to release CC version as soon as possible, the problem is that, CC version is similar to EB, but many things change, hope you will see good news soon

 

Awesome, I am very much looking forward to this! I was very impressed with the EB and the thought of adding weapons and an AFM...:D. Those are the only things missing from the module in my opinion.

 

Keep in mind, I personally only require you to work 6.5 days a week on this for me. :smilewink:

[Vectury]

Hi all:

We are working hard now with CC version, and AFM, every day , 7 days of the week, we are trying to release CC version as soon as possible, the problem is that, CC version is similar to EB, but many things change, hope you will see good news soon

 

I don't mind if you guys need a little longer to get the CC finished, but an update from time to time is all we ask. That being said, thanks for the update Peyvolt! :thumbup:

[zantron]

Of course we are all looking forward to CC but i would be happy camper just to have EFM on EB for Christmas but sounds like CC is coming before flight model

 

Anywho thanks for update aviodev!

Edited December 16, 2015 by zantron

[Hook47]

I don't mind if you guys need a little longer to get the CC finished, but an update from time to time is all we ask. That being said, thanks for the update Peyvolt! :thumbup:

 

I am thankful to hear from the devs, but as a C-101 customer I cannot say that statement (from Peyvolt) satisfies me at all really. Could we get some information about what exactly remains to be done for release? What systems remain to be finished? What are the blocking bugs? Is there an adjusted time from for release available? And anyone who decries me for impatience must remember exactly how long it has been since the 101CC and EFM were expected, vs were we are now. I am not demanding immediate release or anything since that just isn't possible, but certainly would like more information about what is going on or what is still being developed other than "we are workin on it" which basically just lets us know we aren't forgotten- not that doing so is a bad thing! I just think it's not enough info to be honest.

 

Again, this isn't meant to be offensive, just honest input. I think all 3rd party devs need to take a moment to look at how Razbam has handled communication during the development of the M2000C. They have set an awesome example when it comes to communication with customers, and I bet if this was applied to some of our other devs a lot of the issues with the community would vanish.

 

One thing I have heard said is is just takes too much time to regularly update the forums when developing a module, but I think a paragraph or so every once in a while is reasonable.

 

Anyway we certainly hope to see this module/EFM soon, good luck to the team in the mean time.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Hook47

[johnv2pt0]

I am thankful to hear from the devs, but as a C-101 customer I cannot say that statement (from Peyvolt) satisfies me at all really. Could we get some information about what exactly remains to be done for release? What systems remain to be finished? What are the blocking bugs? Is there an adjusted time from for release available? And anyone who decries me for impatience must remember exactly how long it has been since the 101CC and EFM were expected, vs were we are now. I am not demanding immediate release or anything since that just isn't possible, but certainly would like more information about what is going on or what is still being developed other than "we are workin on it" which basically just lets us know we aren't forgotten- not that doing so is a bad thing! I just think it's not enough info to be honest.

 

Again, this isn't meant to be offensive, just honest input. I think all 3rd party devs need to take a moment to look at how Razbam has handled communication during the development of the M2000C. They have set an awesome example when it comes to communication with customers, and I bet if this was applied to some of our other devs a lot of the issues with the community would vanish.

 

One thing I have heard said is is just takes too much time to regularly update the forums when developing a module, but I think a paragraph or so every once in a while is reasonable.

 

Anyway we certainly hope to see this module/EFM soon, good luck to the team in the mean time.

 

+1...if I recall correctly there's been a few of this type of "update" now.

[NeilWillis]

I can certainly understand and sympathise with your frustrations here. It has taken far longer that the developers would have thought to implement the remaining code to get the C101 to the marketplace.

 

However, I also see things slightly differently from a number of people. Anyone who signs up for Beta releases must accept that this is always going to be subject to the difficulties encountered by the developers, whether that be simply dealing with stubborn bugs, or - as is the case with the majority of 3rd party developers - the lack of available man hours or personnel difficulties that may arise. When you paid your money over, you were never told anything about when the final release would be achieved, simply because no one can tell you that.

 

Are any of us entitled to information - no. Are we right to assume we should be kept informed - yes, we should, but there have been a number of very rabid and unreasonable criticisms of developers which have left this forum looking totally unreasonable, and resulted in the developers changing their policies towards us, and deservedly so.

 

We are always impatient to get hold of the next great thing in DCS World, and unfortunately, despite that, stuff takes seemingly forever to get to the point where it is viable for release. It is just a fact of life that it takes as long as it takes.

 

A number of projects have teetered on the brink of cancellation due to internal issues, some fold, some are rescued. We certainly won't help by making demands, no matter how reasonable they may seem, because at the other end of these digs are human beings, who need to be hugged from time to time as well as getting a kicking when they're laying in the gutter. The hug to kicking ratio needs to stay in balance, or they'll just walk away. Don't you get that?

 

Hands up everyone who thinks that unless we give people a hard time, they just won't do what they have promised?

 

Aviodev are very well aware of the situation, and it doesn't need any of us to tell them repeatedly what we demand. First, we have absolutely no right to demand anything, and secondly, it has been said, and they are fully aware of how long it is taking. Give them some slack, and grow a little patience. In the long term, it will be in your interests not to get the pitchforks and flaming torches out! That goes for ALL projects, because even those who appear to be fulfilling every promise made get the same treatment. These guys are breaking new ground when it comes to coding flight simulation modules, and are giving us levels of fidelity we could only dream of a few years ago. Let's give them every opportunity to fulfill their goals without constant snipes from the community they serve so well, even if it does often take much longer than anyone could imagine.

 

Enough said?

[SPIKEN]

WHY !?? -------- WHY ON EARTH release a non-finished beta-type product and ask money for it??

 

This, I believe, is the root problem. Once money is involved, anger, frustration, guilt, bad consience and you name it is ready for take-off. The consequences are not predictable, but they are all bad.

 

So my strong recommedation is: Do not release beta-type products and ask money for them.

 

Suppliers could actually release a beta, for instance to have an early customer feed-back, but then it should be free of charge.

 

 

(Of course I know why and so do you)

[Aginor]

Some people don't mind testing unfinished stuff (and pay a lower price), and like to pay in advance to support development.

 

The money I spend for PC games is money I consider gone anyway.

 

If I think it would be too much if it is gone, I don't spend money at all.

If I fear I probably won't receive anything for my money I don't spend money at all.

 

C-101 isn't finished? I've got enough other planes to fly.

Those who think they can't think that way just shouldn't buy a beta. There's the word beta on it. Just don't click on buy if you don't like to pay for unfinished stuff.

 

So no harm done. :)

[Hook47]

I can certainly understand and sympathise with your frustrations here. It has taken far longer that the developers would have thought to implement the remaining code to get the C101 to the marketplace.

 

However, I also see things slightly differently from a number of people. Anyone who signs up for Beta releases must accept that this is always going to be subject to the difficulties encountered by the developers, whether that be simply dealing with stubborn bugs, or - as is the case with the majority of 3rd party developers - the lack of available man hours or personnel difficulties that may arise. When you paid your money over, you were never told anything about when the final release would be achieved, simply because no one can tell you that.

 

Are any of us entitled to information - no. Are we right to assume we should be kept informed - yes, we should, but there have been a number of very rabid and unreasonable criticisms of developers which have left this forum looking totally unreasonable, and resulted in the developers changing their policies towards us, and deservedly so.

 

We are always impatient to get hold of the next great thing in DCS World, and unfortunately, despite that, stuff takes seemingly forever to get to the point where it is viable for release. It is just a fact of life that it takes as long as it takes.

 

A number of projects have teetered on the brink of cancellation due to internal issues, some fold, some are rescued. We certainly won't help by making demands, no matter how reasonable they may seem, because at the other end of these digs are human beings, who need to be hugged from time to time as well as getting a kicking when they're laying in the gutter. The hug to kicking ratio needs to stay in balance, or they'll just walk away. Don't you get that?

 

Hands up everyone who thinks that unless we give people a hard time, they just won't do what they have promised?

 

Aviodev are very well aware of the situation, and it doesn't need any of us to tell them repeatedly what we demand. First, we have absolutely no right to demand anything, and secondly, it has been said, and they are fully aware of how long it is taking. Give them some slack, and grow a little patience. In the long term, it will be in your interests not to get the pitchforks and flaming torches out! That goes for ALL projects, because even those who appear to be fulfilling every promise made get the same treatment. These guys are breaking new ground when it comes to coding flight simulation modules, and are giving us levels of fidelity we could only dream of a few years ago. Let's give them every opportunity to fulfill their goals without constant snipes from the community they serve so well, even if it does often take much longer than anyone could imagine.

 

Enough said?

 

I see you often come around to echo that we just need to "grow a little patience" but I have two major issues with your points. First, we didn't "sign up for a beta" as you phrased it, we purchased a product, with a black and white statement that it would be finished within a reasonable time frame after release. This isn't a mod or unsold product, it has been sold and Aviodev has entered into an agreement with every single customer to deliver. Cancellation is not on the table for Aviodev, unless they want to end up in a very bad situation with their customers.

 

Secondly you say that it would be in our interest not "to get pitchforks and torches" out, but I assure you based on simple real world experience that things are more likely to get done or changed when there is pressure versus when there is not.

 

Thirdly we are actually entitled to some things, such as a finished product, and along with that I think the customers deserve an improved flow of information. There has been more than enough patience to go around, that isn't the issue here.

 

If you think that we should all just keep silent and twiddle our thumps, please notice that the prior posts expressing concern and slight frustration merited a response from the Dev. I do not think that would have happened if the thread sat silent. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, as it were.

[some1]

Enough said?

 

Let me remind you the quote from the official ED Newsletter released 21 Jan:

 

The C-101EB model is now complete, with the light attack C-101CC version close behind. The AvioDev Technical Team is comprised of rated pilots and engineers that are dedicated to providing the highest level of accuracy and realism.

The Beta of the C-101CC is scheduled to be released by the end of February 2015. Advanced flight models are currently in development and will follow the release of the C-101EB and C-101CC.

 

That's what I bought. A "complete C-101EB model" with C-101CC scheduled for Feb 2015 release. Almost a year later neither C-101EB is complete nor C-101CC has been released even as a beta.

 

According to you, how much more patience should I grow before I am allowed to voice my disappointment?

 

Anyone who signs up for Beta releases must accept that this is always going to be subject to the difficulties encountered by the developers, whether that be simply dealing with stubborn bugs, or - as is the case with the majority of 3rd party developers - the lack of available man hours or personnel difficulties that may arise.

 

And any developer who sells unfinished software, must accept that when he encounters difficulties and delays, whatever the reason, paying customers will get angry. Two sides of the same coin.

 

 

Ah well, beating a dead horse here. But at least I learned my lesson.

[NeilWillis]

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/modules/c-101_aviojet/

 

Even now, it is clearly shown as a Beta product. You both bought a Beta product, and NOT a finished item as you state.

 

That single suffix - Beta - tells all of us that the item you are purchasing is incomplete, in development, and says nothing about when or how the project will be completed.

 

Like it or not, there is nothing in the small print of the purchase agreement that states that you will be kept appraised of progress towards a final full release. It doesn't even say it will ever be completed to your satisfaction, it is just a Beta release you purchased, with no further guarantees of anything. It doesn't even say you might not be charged for the later release module!

 

Re-read the last two sentences of that official ED newsletter, the bit where it says it is a Beta release, and where it also says nothing about time scales.

 

The developers released a Beta version due to the huge number of customers who were very happy to part with their cash - so why do you suggest it was a bad idea?

 

And yes, you are beating a dead horse - of your own making. Why would any developer take the slightest notice of anything you say when you can't even get the most basic facts straight in your own mind?

 

I often say the same things here, because they are, and always will be valid points. If you don't want an unfinished product, then don't buy Beta!

[Flagrum]

Usually "beta" means "feature complete, but expect rough edges". In DCS the term "feature complete" seemingly means more something like "it can take off, can land and inbetween major systems are working". Only SFM? No problem, it still can take off and it also comes down again. No radios? No problem, stick and throttle are functional ... all in scope of a DCS beta.

 

But where are the weapon systems for example? The gun sight? All features I expected to get when I purchased the product. (yes, I am talking about the CC here). All in all, not even 50% of the major features of the whole product is ready, yet. That is not something I would normally expect from a beta. After one year.

 

Neil, I just don't get it. Your stand point is, customers may wait for a fully released product - or if they decide to go for a beta, then ... then what? Just pay ... and that's it? Be grateful for whatever once was released and then just shut up, move on?

[some1]

NeilWillis, you're missing the point. I bought a product. A product that was marketed by ED as close to completion and in active development. Access to the beta version is just a bonus, you can consider it a pre-order with free instant access to the development beta snapshot. That's how A-10 beta was actually sold by ED.

 

However, delays, lack of progress over those 11 months, personal team issues and very little communication from the Aviodev, all make people concerned that not everything is well and the project may never get finished. Simple. People won't sit silently when the project is delayed months, years even while the devs have already taken the money for the complete product they promised (and still selling it to new customers).

[johnv2pt0]

People that continually make excuses for other's business shortfalls are almost as bad as those I see actually asking for the price of things to be higher. There is no real world business knowledge and a lack of basic economics. There's a difference between getting the pitchforks out and stating that an update that doesn't update anyone on anything except to the fact that the writer is still breathing isn't an update at all.

[NeilWillis]

Actually Mike it is YOU that is missing the point. When did Aviodev say that the module you bought in Beta was nearly finished? Show me that please.

 

Secondly, Aviodev HAVE said they are working on the product, and they said so within the past week.

 

So, again, quite simply, just try to be a little more patient. They know we are waiting, and I can promise you, no one is more anxious than me to get hold of EVERY new release, except maybe Aviodev themselves.

 

Your constant bleating about how late it is will add nothing but white noise to the whole situation. It won't bring the release forwards by so much as a second, so don't delude yourself. I read just about all the posts on all the threads here, and I have done for years. Nothing is more annoying or repetitive than the comments we constantly hear - about every release without a single exception - saying it is late/we have no information/when will it be released.

 

I miss no points whatsoever, but you clearly are deluded as to the promises made, the state of completion, and everything else regarding the purchase of a Beta module. Take it from someone who has purchased every module except the KA-50 and the A-10C on day one.

[NeilWillis]

People that continually make excuses for other's business shortfalls are almost as bad as those I see actually asking for the price of things to be higher. There is no real world business knowledge and a lack of basic economics. There's a difference between getting the pitchforks out and stating that an update that doesn't update anyone on anything except to the fact that the writer is still breathing isn't an update at all.

 

So why do you buy them?

 

Aviodev made no bones about the fact that they were releasing an incomplete module, and at no stage have they ever given a timeline for the full release, just like every other developer including Eagle dynamics themselves.

 

Frankly your views are no more valid than the ones asking for the price increases - especially if you have paid out money on a Beta module. If you haven't paid out money then you are simply not entitled to a say.

 

It takes as long as it takes, and no one ever forced any buyer to participate in Beta releases, it is as simple as that. If you don't like it, then go fly something else!

[some1]

Actually Mike it is YOU that is missing the point. When did Aviodev say that the module you bought in Beta was nearly finished? Show me that please.

 

I just showed you on the previous page: C-101EB model finished, C-101CC close behind, CC beta scheduled for February. Quote from ED Newsletter. Aviodev failed miserably with the milestones they set themselves. And they were very optimistic when calling something "finished".

 

I'm not even complaining, I know it's moot right now, just stating that after the delays, lack of any info for months, and drama unfolding behind the scenes, people have the right to be disappointed and concerned. Don't be so eager to defend a business that is not your own, you don't even know on what Aviodev spent the money we paid them, and how much of those 11 months they spent actually developing stuff.

 

I miss no points whatsoever, but you clearly are deluded as to the promises made, the state of completion, and everything else regarding the purchase of a Beta module. Take it from someone who has purchased every module except the KA-50 and the A-10C on day one.

 

I bought A-10C on day one, Ka-50 even before it was released to the Western World (a privately imported CD from Russia), and every other DCS addon while it still was in beta. I usually know what to expect. If only Aviodev C-101 was as "incomplete" as other DCS beta addons out there (except VEAO), then we wouldn't even have this topic to discuss.

Edited December 18, 2015 by some1

[hesterj]

I don't care if the gunsights don't work! Who needs flaps? Just bring me the SEA EAGLE!