DCS: AJS-37 Viggen Discussion

[RaXha]

Ah I see. So it was a compromised but necessary choice. What advantages does it have, generally, as an attack aircraft in a mid-90's battlespace?

 

 

 

It's a extremely specialized design. It's sole purpose was more or less to sink a Soviet invasion fleet. Since the Gripen wasn't ready until 1997 (I think), we needed something that could carry the much improved and very advanced anti ship missile Rb-15. :-)

[QuiGon]

Ah I see. So it was a compromised but necessary choice. What advantages does it have, generally, as an attack aircraft in a mid-90's battlespace?

 

It's pretty outdated for a mid-90s battlespace to be honest. It's more of a Cold Warrior (70s/80s), where it would have performed very well in the strike role on land and sea.

[hughlb]

It's a extremely specialized design. It's sole purpose was more or less to sink a Soviet invasion fleet. Since the Gripen wasn't ready until 1997 (I think), we needed something that could carry the much improved and very advanced anti ship missile Rb-15. :-)

 

Excellent! I was hoping it was in the AS role. Is it optimised for low-level flight? I understand the ground radar would be of use, but was the airframe/engine also designed for a higher performance at low altitude, like the Tornado?

[RaXha]

Excellent! I was hoping it was in the AS role. Is it optimised for low-level flight? I understand the ground radar would be of use, but was the airframe/engine also designed for a higher performance at low altitude, like the Tornado?

 

 

 

Yes, it's mach 1 capable at low altitude. The radar does help at low altitudes. :-)

[hughlb]

Brilliant, thanks QuiGon and RaXha for your feedback. It's certainly one of the more unusual and interesting fast jets.

[BravoYankee4]

It has a early "kind-of" INS that instead of accelerometers uses indicated airspeed (from the pitot) and the gyrocompass to determine the route traveled over the ground. It has drawbacks so the pilot is required to constantly monitor the system giving it updates of the airplanes known position, inputting the wind speed at height, setting correct altimeter setting etc. There are support-systems like a Doppler-system and a system that determines the planes position by using the radar altimeter and comparing it with a stored height-map. You can input new waypoints at any time using a keypad by the pilots right knee.

 

Just chiming in... adding or removing waypoints manually in flight will probably be a bit daunting as in a lot of buttons to push entering 6 digits lat/longitude data etc. But doable :)

One little detail that probably was unique for it's time is that the navigation system was interacting with the fuel gauge - so one needle indicating remaining fuel and one indicating needed fuel, for the remaining waypoints and landing.

There is also a special nav mode for landing and all airbases are in the system, and as far as I know there was (mobile) nav aids for temporary road bases that could be used.

There are also previous posts about radar reflectors at known locations for manual updates of the navigation system.

Hopefully this is also included in the simulation since it was a common procedure and a big part of navigating this bird.

[Vitormouraa]

The AJS-37 is a mid 90s variant with complex avionics and several highly advanced missiles and ground attack ordinance. -Leatherneck

 

I asked about it time ago and they said that. :)

[WinterH]

I asked about it time ago and they said that. :)

 

Well it's still true, AJS-37 is a 90s update, and it has inertially guided glide bomb BK90, which you can give coordinates and say "go there" without even turning to targets directions, as well as the advanced anti ship missiles intented for then upcoming Gripen. It also had fairly complex navigation and targeting system.

 

It's just, most of these complex systems aren't quite 90s material, while some of the weapons are :).

[Vitormouraa]

Well it's still true, AJS-37 is a 90s update, and it has inertially guided glide bomb BK90, which you can give coordinates and say "go there" without even turning to targets directions, as well as the advanced anti ship missiles intented for then upcoming Gripen. It also had fairly complex navigation and targeting system.

 

It's just, most of these complex systems aren't quite 90s material, while some of the weapons are :).

 

Definitely the Viggen seems to be a very interesting aircraft, A2G capabilities look pretty good. And, well, for me, avionics from 90s aren't that old tho. :)

[RaXha]

Definitely the Viggen seems to be a very interesting aircraft, A2G capabilities look pretty good. And, well, for me, avionics from 90s aren't that old tho. :)

 

 

 

You should probably expect 70s or possibly 80s avionics to not be disappointed at release. :P

[JanTelefon]

You should probably expect 70s or possibly 80s avionics to not be disappointed at release. :P

 

Sounds about right. If you like the Mig 21, which I REALLY do, the Viggen will probably be a right treat. :pilotfly:

 

Also I'm Swedish. :music_whistling:

[renhanxue]

How does the AJS-37 stack up against the F/A-18C in the attack role?

 

Both attack aircraft, both 1990's variants, but their initial conception is at least a decade apart.

They're very different in terms of the scope of capabilities that were desired from them. The F/A-18 is a result of the US requirements to be able to project power anywhere on Earth from its carriers and fly any type of missions, while the AJ (and later AJS) 37 had a vastly narrower mission scope. The entire aircraft was designed around the Baltic anti-ship role, with additional capabilities added on where it was possible and money sufficed.

 

For example, the combat radius isn't very big, but it's just big enough for flying the kind of missions the Swedish air force needed to fly. It didn't have a true inertial navigation system, but since the computer could be pre-loaded with most of the important landmarks etc that didn't really matter, and it didn't have to wait for half an hour for the gyros to stabilize on a cold start. You could punch in latitude and longitude in any order, because the nav system just assumed you were somewhere in the vicinity of Sweden and figured out which was which that way. It was rather unsuited to CAS missions, but the air force didn't operate in that way in the 70's, so it didn't matter. The thrust reverser mainly adds weight and complexity for little gain over a carrier-style hook if you can expect your infrastructure to be mainly intact, but the SwAF couldn't and didn't, so the reverser was needed. It goes on and on like this - the AJ 37 sacrificed "broad" capabilities to win "narrow" ones that suited its role and intended mission there and then. The AJS 37 upgrade was mainly about adding a few new weapons, which made the aircraft only slightly less specialized.

 

If you want an aircraft for Desert Storm 3: The Game of the Movie: Electric Boogaloo, the AJS 37 is not a good choice. It doesn't loiter, it doesn't drop PGM's, it doesn't offer any form of night vision and can't even do a gun run unless you bring pods. On the other hand, if you want to form up 50 aircraft radio silent over Småland and set out at five meters over the sea completely without fighter cover in order to drown the 336th Guards Naval Infantry Brigade out of Baltiysk in a storm of ASM's somewhere east of Gotland, you've got exactly the right aircraft.

[RagnarDa]

That sounds really interesting!

 

I don't know if it has already been answererd, but is all this modeled in the DCS Viggen? Especially drift?

 

 

 

Yes everything above is modeled. The indicated own position will drift (especially at height or when flying over sea or flat terrain, or upside down); gyroscopes will drift and the headings will need to be reset; everything has latencies modeled; and also all presentation aswell as ballistic calculations uses the proper simulated sources so you will have to for example make sure the altimeter is correct for your bombs to hit where you are aiming.

[Chrinik]

Not very well. It has no targeting pods, no PGM, no INS (well, sort of) or even GPS and very limited self defense capability.

 

Aren´t Mavericks considered PGMs?

I thought they were...

 

Also, the RB-15 and BK-90 Mjölnir are very capable weapons if modeled (Anti ship and Standoff-cluster munition). So it´s got something going for it, which is nice.

 

People also forget this is primarily a STRIKE aircraft, not a CAS aircraft...

 

Strike aircraft go in, deploy weapons, go out.

 

CAS planes stick around to support troops on the ground. It´s not meant for that.

 

So you brief a target, say an enemy troop concentration (FARP, FOB, Staging area)...then you arm accourdingly to deliver the most destruction in the least amount of time possible.

 

Then you go back to base and rearm.

The typical "A-10 approach" of loitering around, finding targets with TGP, rolling in for an attack, deploying weapons and then resetting to do it again is not really the mission, design nor use for a Viggen.

 

I´m looking forward to some nice Anti shipping and strike missions.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Chrinik

[Sim Flyer]

I am really looking forward to trying this plane in Blue Flag and some strike missions on enemy airfields :D

[Hook47]

I am really looking forward to trying this plane in Blue Flag and some strike missions on enemy airfields :D

 

Totally agreed! It will be a blast, trust me :)

[QuiGon]

Yes everything above is modeled. The indicated own position will drift (especially at height or when flying over sea or flat terrain, or upside down); gyroscopes will drift and the headings will need to be reset; everything has latencies modeled; and also all presentation aswell as ballistic calculations uses the proper simulated sources so you will have to for example make sure the altimeter is correct for your bombs to hit where you are aiming.

That's so awesome. Finally we get a DCS module that simulates this (maybe the Mirage too, soon)! :thumbup:

Just one more question: How do we update the "INS" to reset drift inflight in DCS? I think IRL there are different ways to do that (e.g. overflying a known location and hit "update", using the radar to recognize height maps, ...?).

 

 

Aren´t Mavericks considered PGMs?

I thought they were...

They are indeed! I thought about bombs when I said that :)

 

I am really looking forward to trying this plane in Blue Flag and some strike missions on enemy airfields :D

You're not the only one :D

Edited June 10, 2016 by QuiGon

[Mayo2017]

I am really looking forward to trying this plane in Blue Flag and some strike missions on enemy airfields :D

 

I've been using the limited ground attack capabilites of the Su-27 as a way to scratch that itch. Poorly-implemented as it is, using it like a Viggen is a surefire way to really piss some bad guys off when they aren't expecting something to come in at mach 1 at 20m AGL, dump rockets, and burn away. :lol:

[Hook47]

I've been using the limited ground attack capabilites of the Su-27 as a way to scratch that itch. Poorly-implemented as it is, using it like a Viggen is a surefire way to really piss some bad guys off when they aren't expecting something to come in at mach 1 at 20m AGL, dump rockets, and burn away. :lol:

 

The Flanker can make a mess of things if done right! I like loading her down with all those FAB 100s and carpet bombing stuff all to hell!

 

The Viggens BK 90 is a game changer. Heck of a standoff weapon and is able to do some things other weapon systems in DCS just can't do.

[Chrinik]

I just hope it will be there to play around with....honestly I can´t see why not because even classification cannot stop you from just making a cluster bomb that glides to coordinates and deploys XD

 

So unless someone jams a cease and desist down their throats, I think we should have one.

Wouldn´t really be a point to make the AJS if we can´t get the weapons that the AJS was made for XD

[WinterH]

Cobra did confirm that BK90 will be included somewhere in this thread :).

[Akatsuki]

I'd really like to see something... I don't know... Something like a screenshot of the Viggen in DCS... But i know, i am a dreamer...

[Rammit]

Cobra did confirm that BK90 will be included somewhere in this thread :).

 

Just looked up the BK.90 - anything nicknamed Mjölnir is going to be a force to be reckoned with. Before I was pretty interested in the Viggen, now I really quite excited

 

 

edit: especially if we can do this...

 

[YoYo]

 

;)

[Farks]

Just looked up the BK.90 - anything nicknamed Mjölnir is going to be a force to be reckoned with. Before I was pretty interested in the Viggen, now I really quite excited

 

 

edit: especially if we can do this...

 

 

Info movie about the BK 90 (aka DWS 39):