CCIP Accuracy - Damage

[jcbak]

I've been practicing a good deal of CCIP drops using the Mirage 2000C lately....without much success. I've experimented with various dive angles but that's another discussion. It seems if I don't get a direct hit, it sustains no damage (I generally drop two bombs at once). I was on the 104th and watching other Mirages and Mig21s dropping unguided bombs and I could see that their bomb drops were very close (right next to the target) but no damage. It seems to be the same with rockets. The rockets are exploding all over the target but no damage unless its a direct hit.

 

My question.....Is that realistic? Is it just a characteristic of DCS? Its very frustrating. I have to drop 4 snake eyes to get a hit.

[Voodooflies]

AOE of bombs on DCS is lame and it surely can become really annoying. A lot of people have complained about that and explosion size, there's no blast effect on DCS. If you don't hit the target directly, in most case the target remains pretty much undamaged. On BMS, you could really feel the GBU power. I don't know what ED are waiting for... this has been a known issue for ages, just like those horrible vanilla navigation lights !

[GGTharos]

My question.....Is that realistic? Is it just a characteristic of DCS? Its very frustrating. I have to drop 4 snake eyes to get a hit.

 

On one hand, yes, there are issues with some of the area effect model. On the other hand, no one snipe-bombs with single dumb bombs, they drop a bunch - hogs would drop all 4 bombs on their targets... It wasn't 'I can get a single target with each bomb'.

[Harry.R]

The multiple drop is not always the case, this depends on a lot of factors including the target, the targets protection and the weapons aiming system in the aircraft. A decent size bomb should have collateral damage, even a near miss with a 500 pounder should be unhealthy.

[gospadin]

A lot of F-16s and A-10s have dropped singles in the last decade.

[Skjold]

Yep, that is the unfortunate reality of (the lack of) fragmentation and blast simulation in DCS. It is my personal most requested fix up there with better missile seekers :)

[shagrat]

I have to agree. Blast/Fragmentation damage is horribly represented. I agree, a Tank or heavy APC won't get killed by a bomb exploding 10m beside it, but a truck, lightly armored vehicle or wheeled APC should get considerable damage. Even a Tank/Heavy APC should take damage to external MGs, mirror sights and may be tracks if close enough and at least the concussion will be nauseating to the crew! Let's just say, after two Mk-82 hit close to a BMP-2 or T-72 it is unrealistic to get shot down by the crews with MGs and cannons 2 seconds after the impact!!!

Thus everybody I know, bombs from high above with guided munition only. As sniping Tanks and BMPs are still more deadly than AAA...

[Slipp]

One of the problems is that Mirage's CCIP and CCRP are horribly inaccurate and appear to be under modelled or bugged.

[Skjold]

I have to agree. Blast/Fragmentation damage is horribly represented. I agree, a Tank or heavy APC won't get killed by a bomb exploding 10m beside it, but a truck, lightly armored vehicle or wheeled APC should get considerable damage. Even a Tank/Heavy APC should take damage to external MGs, mirror sights and may be tracks if close enough and at least the concussion will be nauseating to the crew! Let's just say, after two Mk-82 hit close to a BMP-2 or T-72 it is unrealistic to get shot down by the crews with MGs and cannons 2 seconds after the impact!!!

Thus everybody I know, bombs from high above with guided munition only. As sniping Tanks and BMPs are still more deadly than AAA...

 

No thats correct but in real life there is such things as mission kills and mobility kills. A tank or armoured vehicle that has lost its tracks won't move again for an extended period of time. There is also a very real possibility that if any major damage would be taken IRL the crew would abandon vehicle which would constitute a mission kill. Both would be fairly easily modelled in DCS.

 

You could for example say that if the mobility or main armament of a vehicle is compromised then there is a high chance that the crew would abandon vehicle and you would get the kill which you would figure out by code that checks what parts of a vehicle gets hit, which already exists at least in a basic format of front/side/rear armour.

 

One of the problems is that Mirage's CCIP and CCRP are horribly inaccurate and appear to be under modelled or bugged.

 

Agreed, it is horribly inaccurate.

[WinterH]

I am of the opinion we over estimate "one bomb sniping" we can usually do in sims vs real life capabilities of most CCIP / CCRP systems.

 

That said, since a few updates, bombs seem to got weaker. Earlier on I was usually able to do some pretty heavy damage with FAB-500 bombs, one or a couple between a group of vehicles would usually create a few smoldering ruins and remaining targets would also be damaged. Now though, they barely seem to nick anything unless they fall right next to or just on top of the target. Something feels like changed, although I feel they are too weak now, I also used to question whether those 500 kg bombs would be that much destructive vs armoured vehicles as they did before.

[jojo]

Try to straf ground troops with 30mm or rockets, even with A-10...you can see impact next to guys standing strong!

[shagrat]

No thats correct but in real life there is such things as mission kills and mobility kills. A tank or armoured vehicle that has lost its tracks won't move again for an extended period of time. There is also a very real possibility that if any major damage would be taken IRL the crew would abandon vehicle which would constitute a mission kill. Both would be fairly easily modelled in DCS.

 

You could for example say that if the mobility or main armament of a vehicle is compromised then there is a high chance that the crew would abandon vehicle and you would get the kill which you would figure out by code that checks what parts of a vehicle gets hit, which already exists at least in a basic format of front/side/rear armour.

 

 

 

Agreed, it is horribly inaccurate.

I was more pointing out the missing effect against Anti-Air MGs etc. on Tanks! Even a T-72B could not engage a diving plane 2-3 seconds after a FAB-500/Mk-82 hit 10m beside it! The DShk should be in a sorry state, the mirrors/periscope/sights potentially damaged/blinded and the crew feel a ringing in their ears and body, trying to orientate themselves. Nobody expects they hang on the scopes and instantly shoot the diving plane down, right?! They will recover and can fight again after say 20-30 seconds or more, but not 2 seconds after impact.

[Skjold]

I was more pointing out the missing effect against Anti-Air MGs etc. on Tanks! Even a T-72B could not engage a diving plane 2-3 seconds after a FAB-500/Mk-82 hit 10m beside it! The DShk should be in a sorry state, the mirrors/periscope/sights potentially damaged/blinded and the crew feel a ringing in their ears and body, trying to orientate themselves. Nobody expects they hang on the scopes and instantly shoot the diving plane down, right?! They will recover and can fight again after say 20-30 seconds or more, but not 2 seconds after impact.

 

Yeah agreed, might have gone off on a tantrum there. Anyway, you could implement a "stun" effect where if a powerful enough explosion takes place within a certain radius the crew would be temporarily out of action and unable to return fire.

[Deezle]

So far my tactic against a group of trucks/troops/BMPs is to come in low 100-200' at full burner and drop a pair of snake eyes ~100' early or so. It's so fast they don't even have time to shoot at you, including manpads, and the bombs usually take out at least most of the troops.

[DarkFire]

I was under the impression that DCS explosion modelling is entirely based on spherical blast damage. Fragmentation effects aren't modelled so maybe they toned down the blast effect to make target damage more realistic.

 

I know the discussion here is largely about the effects on armour targets, but I remember watching a documentary maybe a year or two ago where a team re-created the effects of WW2 German bombs on houses. Turned out that the 1000 Kg bomb did massive damage but anything under, i.e. 500 Kg, 250 Kg, 100 Kg and 50 Kg actually did surprisingly light damage to brick built structures. Troops out in the open would of course be an entirely different matter.

 

I also agree that it would be nice if mobility & mission kills could be simulated. Maybe forthcoming changes to the Combined Arms module will give us something along those lines.

[shagrat]

So far my tactic against a group of trucks/troops/BMPs is to come in low 100-200' at full burner and drop a pair of snake eyes ~100' early or so. It's so fast they don't even have time to shoot at you, including manpads, and the bombs usually take out at least most of the troops.

Don't try that against SA-9 or Shilkas... ;)

[Deezle]

Don't try that against SA-9 or Shilkas... ;)

I can usually get the jump on Skilkas. Haven't tried SA-9. I did get a kill on an SA-8 earlier while it was surrounded by a bunch of tanks and BMPs:joystick:

[jojo]

Don't try that against SA-9 or Shilkas... ;)

 

This is why there is CCRP :smilewink:

[shagrat]

This is why there is CCRP :smilewink:

 

Not for Snake Eyes... at least not at the moment.

[jojo]

Not for Snake Eyes... at least not at the moment.

 

I know. But when I say CCRP off course I think of Mk-82...you have to choose before tak off :smartass:

[Chrinik]

I also think one of the issues is incorrect weapons...I have noticed in steep dives the Snakeeyes generally impact where the pipper was at the point of release, but the cluster munitions are way off.

Considering that the Belouga 66 works completely different then the Mk.20 we currently have as a replacement, I´d say that is part of the issue.

 

The Mk.20 explodes and creates a cone infront of the bomb that gets showered with bomblets. This means that the CCIP solution needs to be rediculously accurate to put that cone on the target, I have to release early with the pipper about half an inch from the target to get a chance to make the submunitions hit the intended target.

 

The Belouga has 155 submunitions aranged in ringlaunchers around the bomb, launched over a period of time creating a spread some 220m long.

 

I´d say if we get the Belougas, CCIP for clusters will definately improve. I had less success with snakeeyes since I try to drop them low level, and the pipper is nowhere to be seen as it is somewhere under my aircraft apparently.

 

CCRP seems to work just fine, I usually drop in pairs and start dropping a couple seconds early, the bombs tend to impact in a nice spread around the designated target.

[Slipp]

Zeus said that we can use waypoint to act as a pre-desiganted CCRP target.

 

How can we do that?

[PiedDroit]

Zeus said that we can use waypoint to act as a pre-desiganted CCRP target.

 

How can we do that?

 

I think you only need to set the active waypoint then switch to bombs.

Not sure it works but I remember seeing a designation cursor (cross in the HUD) while I didn't select a target yet.

So I suspect that without a designated target in CCRP mode, the designator will default to active waypoint, allowing you to perform a CCRP drop on it.

Can't test right now.

[nomdeplume]

^ I don't think it's fully implemented, if it's meant to work like that. The steering indicator will always become a cross when you're within a certain range of the target point, so that's just normal behaviour.

 

I played around with this briefly when the module first came out, and had to designate the target just like normal. I didn't have visibility on it due to clouds, so I just put the CCRP designation diamond on the steerpoint cross and engaged it that way.

[IvanK]

Either way INS drift etc will reduce the accuracy of dropping on an INS designated point. (NAVDSG in F18). I guess you would see the magnitude of the error bu just how far off thecross is from the Target. Either way Redesignating will result in a more accurate delivery