Why is refueling in simulators so hard?

[Snoopy]

ED...PLEASE don't dumb down AR, with practice it is not hard at all.

 

If an "easy" option is made available please make it server side enforced for MP.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Snoopy

[Boris]

DCS World is the most realistic combat aviation simulator to date and it's only getting more realistic. The idea is to simulate the actual aircraft and systems and weapons as much as it is feasible in a virtual world.

People take pride in learning to be a virtual combat pilot, learning the ins and outs of different systems, practicing even the most mundane aspects.... and have lots of fun while doing so.

 

Therefore there is absolutely no reason why AAR should be any less realistic. I'm all for an improvement (like the boom operator AI), but dumbing the practice down goes directly against what DCS is about.

 

AAR IS hard and that's the way I like it. I know it's been mentioned before, but I'd encourage anyone who hasn't to listen to the A-10 pilot interview that was posted a couple of months back. In it, he confirms that AAR is hard and even mentions he developed some nervousness about it.

[Aginor]

LAWL...

 

I have said on many occasions if the AI Boom Operator was in my squadron...we'd have words. seriously, for what it is, the AI boom does a pretty good job all things considered. unlike humans, AI doesn't "learn". It took me about a year of formal training and regular "vanilla" training sorties before I was competent and more importantly comfortable doing my job. But each time I flew, I learned something I could use next time no matter what I was refueling. AI doesn't work like this.

 

In MY opinion...the AR evolution is a little tough. Is it accurate, sure...as far as I can tell. But why? Are we actually training for combat? If we don't get the AR and have to eject...have we actually scrapped a 25 million dollar airframe? All things considered, I wish AR was like the ground refueling / rearming process. Not "prototypical" but not teeth pulling either. Make it easier to get on and stay on the boom...and more people will use tankers...

Thanks again, Sierra99. :)

I just wanted to make sure I am on the right track here, because a while ago I read somewhere from another real life boom operator that the AI is... well.. "not really cooperative".

That makes some aspects of refueling harder than they are in real life.

 

 

As for "dumbing it down":

I agree with Snoopy and Boris: It is not _that_ hard to refuel a plane in DCSW if you practice it now and then. I still think that making the refueling process - especially AI behaviour - more realistic could achieve both goals: making it more like in real work AND making it easier in some ways.

 

But ED should also take effects into consideration that make it more realistic, even if they make refueling harder, such as turbulence.

 

I see it this way: As long as it stays possible for people who practice it now and then based on real world procedures the goal of realism is more important than to make it simple.

One of the reasons for me to say that, is that in most cases it isn't really necessary in DCSW anyway. It is optional, actually it is even more practical to land in most missions anyway. Our maps are small, air fields are everywhere.

[HiJack]

To simplify ED could just make it possible to view the position lights in a pop-up window like they do with hotas axes. Just seeing the position lights will make it easier for a lot of players on small screens and with no trackir.

[McBlemmen]

To simplify ED could just make it possible to view the position lights in a pop-up window like they do with hotas axes. Just seeing the position lights will make it easier for a lot of players on small screens and with no trackir.

 

That's actually a great idea

[Aginor]

To simplify ED could just make it possible to view the position lights in a pop-up window like they do with hotas axes. Just seeing the position lights will make it easier for a lot of players on small screens and with no trackir.

 

I like that idea as well. Reminds me of the old game "Aces of the Pacific", which showed the LSO in a small popup window during carrier landing.

EDIT: That was because the resolution was so bad, you had to simulate the pilot's ability to see the LSO's signals.

 

Or maybe enable the Boom operator to talk to the receiving fighter, toggle-able by radio menu. I think Jane's USAF had that feature.

 

I actually don't know if that is very realistic though. I guess most pilots wouldn't need it.

[Sierra99]

ED...PLEASE don't dumb down AR, with practice it is not hard at all.

 

If an "easy" option is made available please make it server side enforced for MP.

 

Snoopy WHILE I AGREE AR isn't hard with practice, you are completely ignoring the fact it is harder than it should be because of the AI part of the equation. Is it possible... With practice... To fly to the X point in space behind the tanker where "Airman Snuffy, the AI Wonder Boom" decides you meet all the proper parameters to effect a contact. Sure. But that's not real life.

 

In real life, I would NEVER make a receiver fly to the exact same place in the sky inches from the end of the boom before attempting to a contact. Never. The receiver flys to the point I can safely make a contact and the boom is maneuvered to effect contact.

 

If we're talking realism, this is where the sim is absolutely unrealistic no matter how much training you have.

 

Im not saying "Dumb it down" but until the AI boom operator gets smarter...there should be a better balance.

[Snoopy]

AI boomer should be improved, didn't think I needed to type the obvious.

 

AI in general needs a ton of work.

[NineLine]

ED...PLEASE don't dumb down AR, with practice it is not hard at all.

 

If an "easy" option is made available please make it server side enforced for MP.

 

I personally haven't heard anything about them even considering this.

[Fish]

To simplify ED could just make it possible to view the position lights in a pop-up window like they do with hotas axes. Just seeing the position lights will make it easier for a lot of players on small screens and with no trackir.

 

+1

 

But don't dumb anything down, please.

 

ED what about a 'Boom operator' module..........now that would add realism..

Edited March 5, 2016 by Fish

[Redglyph]

I have tried recently, for quite a while. Today still, I could maintain the A-10C quite stable near the flying boom, but the AI wouldn't extend the tube enough.

 

In order to succeed, it seems the pilot has to surprise the AI a little bit and advance just at the right moment and impale on the tube. Normally I would expect the tank operator to extend the tube to establish contact once the aircraft is stable and at the correct distance.

 

Arguably I don't have much practice, but something is definitely wrong. When watching the track after a long session, from the external camera, it's obvious the contact could be triggered, actually the tube is inside the nose of the A-10C but nothing happens.

 

I'll leave that aside for now, I hope this is reported as necessary improvement / fix...

[NineLine]

 

I'll leave that aside for now, I hope this is reported as necessary improvement / fix...

 

Yes, as I stated, they are aware the AI needs more training :)

[Destroyer37]

To simplify ED could just make it possible to view the position lights in a pop-up window like they do with hotas axes. Just seeing the position lights will make it easier for a lot of players on small screens and with no trackir.

 

Although I think this is a great idea, IIRC the position lights are more for aircraft that refuel behind the pilot, F-15/16 etc... Not sure how much help that would be for the Hog drivers but I do like the idea!

[Redglyph]

Yes, as I stated, they are aware the AI needs more training :)

 

I was so focused on the boom I must have missed your previous post, sorry :)

They did warn me about not chasing the boom!

[SharpeXB]

Yeah don't look at the boom at all. Just stay in formation with the tanker.

When you've made contact, the colored bands help you maintain distance but you still shouldn't be fixated on the boom.

A real important step is to stabilize yourself behind the tanker before clearing for contact. With the fuel door open, trim the plane and match the speed, be able to let go of your controls and remain on station when you request contact.

 

IIRC the position lights are more for aircraft that refuel behind the pilot, F-15/16 etc... Not sure how much help that would be for the Hog drivers but I do like the idea!

I figured they are there for night time AAR. Now there's a whole new adventure. Refueling at night!

Edited March 18, 2016 by SharpeXB

[Bender_39]

I had problems with refueling over years and the thing what really helped was buying the warthog stick from thrustmaster. It was a Revolution in case of flying precise. AAR, formation flying and so on

 

Before I made contact with the Boom only for seconds. First attempt with the new stick, complete refuel over several minutes without disconection.

 

Also don't focus on the Boom just stay in formation with the Tanker

[Redglyph]

I had problems with refueling over years and the thing what really helped was buying the warthog stick from thrustmaster. It was a Revolution in case of flying precise. AAR, formation flying and so on

 

Before I made contact with the Boom only for seconds. First attempt with the new stick, complete refuel over several minutes without disconection.

 

Also don't focus on the Boom just stay in formation with the Tanker

 

It's not bad, but there are two issues that make precise control more difficult: the spring which is a bit strong (helps with FBW aircraft though), and striction.

 

For example, I don't find it very well-adapted to flying an helicopter like the Huey.

 

Not that I have a better solution at the moment, and all in all, it's good.

 

 

Tried again to refuel from a tanker, and still the same, I keep the A-10C stable, at the correct distance, but the tanker operator remains stupidly pointed in the right direction but does not move the tube. It's hopeless.

[hansangb]

Redglyph,

I used the spring mod (where you take out the main spring) and it's great for Huey. And I like it better in A10 as well.

 

 

[ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBMBR8M0z2E]YouTube[/ame]

[Redglyph]

Redglyph,

I used the spring mod (where you take out the main spring) and it's great for Huey. And I like it better in A10 as well.

 

Interesting, thanks for the link! :)

Re-centering seems a bit of an issue though but it could be worth a try.

[paulca]

If any of you play racing sims and drive a car in the real world will realise that even with the best most accurate car sim and the best more accurate steering wheel and pedals somethings are just very, very difficult in sims compared to reality.

 

Following another car at close quarters accurately for example, analogous in a loose way to a2a refueling is very difficult in a sim, but yet we (drivers) do that every single day in traffic and can place the front of the car within an inch of where we want it to be.

 

I think one key sense that people often exclude that can't really be simulated (at least well and not at all without millions of pounds worth of equipment) is motion. You body has the equivalent of accelerometers which are amazingly accurate. Without them you would not be able to stand up. Even though you are not aware of them or what they are telling you, they are telling you the tiniest little movements. So when you open the throttle to advance on the tanker while you may not be aware of it per-sae your brain is aware of feeling the acceleration.

 

Add this feedback into the process of "motor memory" and your brain can adapt and learn some pretty amazing things. Without the proper sensory feedback the process of correct motor memory and 'hand eye coordination' does not work anywhere near as efficiently. If you want to see just how much of a difference it makes, next time you are in the car, try braking with your left foot. DO NOT do it in traffic!

Edited March 22, 2016 by paulca

[Aginor]

Absolutely right!

It is amazingly easy to drive a car "in formation", even at pretty high speeds, yet I failed to do so in pretty much every racing sim I ever tried. :D

The same applies here of course. This aspect is actually easier in real life than in a simulator.

 

Although I think seeing in 3D is even more imporant than the feeling for acceleration. Your "butt sense" can be VERY misleading when flying (in driving it is pretty good though). In fact it can be so misleading that instructors advice you not to judge anything by it, but use your instruments.

 

There is a cool video on youtube that explains some of the funny stuff you can feel while flying, it could be this one or a similar one (can't look right now): [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yHszBWQIsc[/ame]

[Gliptal]

It seems like modern tankers have 3D headsets for the boom operators to help them perceive depth: read a snippet from an article in this thread. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=163391

[Socket7]

Absolutely right!

It is amazingly easy to drive a car "in formation", even at pretty high speeds, yet I failed to do so in pretty much every racing sim I ever tried. :D

The same applies here of course. This aspect is actually easier in real life than in a simulator.

 

Although I think seeing in 3D is even more imporant than the feeling for acceleration. Your "butt sense" can be VERY misleading when flying (in driving it is pretty good though). In fact it can be so misleading that instructors advice you not to judge anything by it, but use your instruments.

 

There is a cool video on youtube that explains some of the funny stuff you can feel while flying, it could be this one or a similar one (can't look right now): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yHszBWQIsc

 

Yup! you can play all kinds of tricks on your inner ear. Whenever your visual perception doesn't match what your inner ear is perceiving, you feel very uncomfortable.

 

When A2A refueling though, you have many static points of visual reference to correlate with your inner ear. It's a situation where the seat of your pants is probably more helpful rather than less helpful.

 

I think a big part of it is scale too. in DCS, you are aiming for an area a few hundred pixels across on a small screen. In the real world, you're aiming for a box several cubic feet large. Everything may be to scale, but everything is still smaller.

 

Honestly though? Practice. Practice. Practice. I spent a week being hopeless at A2A, then suddenly it clicked and a few hours later I was able to go from fumes to fully loaded in a single plug. There is a dramatic dropoff in difficulty once you figure out the basic skill, but it will take you the rest of your life to perfect it once you get over that hump in the learning curve.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Socket7

[paulca]

I had my first go last night. Got contact on the first approach, but hadn't figured out how to hold it once there. Then I spent the next 5 minutes trying to connect again and then remembered I have to reset the nose thingie or it doesn't work. The boom was not moving to help me, but rather trying to move away from me all the time.

 

Of course I took one tanker out running into it's tail and I shot one down cause I was frustrated and never tried the gun in A to A mode.

[ricktoberfest]

Shooting tankers is stress relief

 

 

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