Perfect hover after 7 years

[Johnny Dioxin]

I always used my G940 HOTAS for helicopters. It has great feedback, gives you better control due to the trimmer response. I swear by it for all DCS rotary winged aircraft.

 

Not any more!

 

I was never able to hover my Ka-50 in a stable condition for any length of time and it was really frustrating trying to succeed at it. I went up next to some experienced guys who just stuck there in mid-air, with no problems at all, whilst I danced around, looking for excuses. :joystick:

 

This evening for the first time since I bought the Ka-50 in 2009, I achieved this great art for more than 15 minutes. I was so pleased, I just sat there looking around the cockpit, reading off the switch labels and just admiring the detail etc - then did some sightseeing with the IT-23, head down and not bothering to even glance up, feeling perfectly safe!

 

So - how did I manage it? What was the secret?

 

Using a non-FFB stick! Yup - the force feedback was my enemy - just as it was with that A-10C autopilot that was always frustratingly disengaging itself.

 

Now I really feel like a member of a unique minority! :D

[Sryan]

Did you make sure you had Auto-center stick set to OFF in the options when you used FFB?

[dabomb]

Try the Huey now. :)

[zaelu]

I wish people that make the best out of G940 would post their complete setups. I am happy with it, I can achieve hover but not very easy and I use the AP to hold it.

 

My main problem is the center slack... I can't filter it out as the FFB would be thrown off and I can't really feel what is it doing there for sure.

 

At some point I will buy a Warthog I guess and start modifying the G940 until it looks like Starship Enterprise :) .

Edited March 16, 2016 by zaelu

[Nate--IRL--]

FFB is not compatible with input curves - I discovered that very early on. Non-FFB only if you use curves.

 

Nate

[Rangi]

I discovered the same thing when I got a warthog after years with the G940. My guess is it's the hysteresis, the x and y for the joystick still have 5% hysteresis (unless you have it modded). I modded with a bodnar board the throttle and rudder but thought the joystick was ok with only 5% hysteresis, until I got the warthog.

[Johnny Dioxin]

Did you make sure you had Auto-center stick set to OFF in the options when you used FFB?

 

I can't remember.

[Penshoon]

FFB is not compatible with input curves - I discovered that very early on. Non-FFB only if you use curves.

 

Nate

That is only true if you use DCS engine to supply forces but if you use simFFB you can add as much curves as you like and have the ffb trim match stick position.

 

I wish people that make the best out of G940 would post their complete setups. I am happy with it, I can achieve hover but not very easy and I use the AP to hold it.

 

My main problem is the center slack... I can't filter it out as the FFB would be thrown off and I can't really feel what is it doing there for sure.

 

At some point I will buy a Warthog I guess and start modifying the G940 until it looks like Starship Enterprise :) .

For helicopters I recommend trying simFFB application http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2419366&postcount=152

In windows game controller setting I use 100% overall effects-, 80% spring-, 80% dampening strength & disabled centering spring.

In simFFB I'm not totally sure but approx. 65% for spring, 80% damper & 80% friction.

That feels pretty good for me, stick always have some "weight" to it that helps dampening stick movements when holding down trim button. When flying trimmed there's just enough centering force to feel where it is trimmed while also allowing me to manoeuvre outside the trimmed position without having to add much force on the stick.

 

Also make sure you have the updated firmware from Logitech (1.42) that removed hysteresis on X & Y axis and dialed down the center slop.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Penshoon

[Scarecrow]

I had the G940 but it's been shelved in favour of a MSFFB2+CHFighter Stick creation.

I had a love hate relationship with the G940, it held so much promise :cry:

The reason for the centre slack is that DCS world isn't really speaking the correct language to the G940. The MSFFB2 is pretty tight, not perfect but alot better than the G940.

 

The G940 really works nicely if you use it to drive in a driving game because all driving games use the newer FFB protocol which I think is owned/licensed by logitech. Every racing game is expected to have FFB these days so I wonder do racing game devs have to pay to utilise that protocol?

 

So ED tried really hard to make the G940 work in DCS but Logitechs attitude was described as "intransigent".:smartass:

[Nate--IRL--]

That is only true if you use DCS engine to supply forces but if you use simFFB you can add as much curves as you like and have the ffb trim match stick position.

 

Much Obliged! I'll have shot with that and see if it helps.

 

Nate

[Abburo]

 

The G940 really works nicely if you use it to drive in a driving game because all driving games use the newer FFB protocol which I think is owned/licensed by logitech. Every racing game is expected to have FFB these days so I wonder do racing game devs have to pay to utilise that protocol?.:smartass:

 

Are you using the joystick in car racing games? :)

 

Regarding G940 centering issue... that movement around centered point are not very good especially for helis.

 

My time did not allowed me to do something but the plan to correct this is the following:

- to analyze the signal output that goes to motors with an osciloscope (friends help needed for that :))

- to convert that signal to a PPM like signal with the help from an Arduino board

- with Arduino to create an exception that in case of no input signal to preserve the current condition/coordinates

- to replace the current motors with brushless outrunners or even stepper motors (of course there will be needed for each an ESC or a driver). The ESC and brushless motors I am intending to use are those used in aeromodelism hobby.

 

Not cheap at all that scenario, but for sure will worth the work. However, I will happilly replace this scenario if somebody can create an directX FFB device which might be added to a LeoBodnar controller. So if anybody can write a code for Arduino (I simply am not capable for this) to translate standard FFB from DirectX it will be the most perfect situation. Even an Worthog might be adapted with FFB after this :)

[Johnny Dioxin]

That is only true if you use DCS engine to supply forces but if you use simFFB you can add as much curves as you like and have the ffb trim match stick position. ........

 

For helicopters I recommend trying simFFB application

 

Also make sure you have the updated firmware from Logitech (1.42) that removed hysteresis on X & Y axis and dialed down the center slop.

 

Much Obliged! I'll have shot with that and see if it helps.

 

Nate

 

I didn't use curves in my Ka-50 profiles (only for the pedals), but I did try simFFB on a couple of different devices and sims (DCSW, FSX, rFactor and other racing sims with the G940 for flying and a G25 and TM FFB wheel for racing) but I didn't find enough of a difference to quantify any improvement to be honest.

 

Due to this, I stopped using it as it was one more possible key to or cause of any problems arising.

 

Other people swore by it, though.

 

I'm lucky enough to have 2 simming PCs in my 'hobby room', so I use the Warthog at one and the G940 at the other. I also have two Ka-50 codes, so I can do direct/back-to-back comparisons :)

Edited March 17, 2016 by Brixmis

[zaelu]

I also had mixed experiences with SimFFB and did not find any sweet settings. But I will try Penshoon settings and see how it goes.

 

The directInput in SimFFB window... what does it? Reinitialize the input from the stick?

 

As about modding I want to create a simple ball gimbal (with an external guide for roll axis of the stick to prevent twist), bottom part housing a piece of iron and in place of the motors pairs of electromagnets (coils). The feedback sensors should be the same... and most of the circuits... I guess :)

[jib]

I now have great control in the KA50 with my Logitech G940 after I extended the stick by over 2 feet!

 

 

I also changed the USB controller for the peddles and I get way less spiking and smoother control with them

 

 

It is really useful to learn to use a soldering iron when you are into flight SIMS :)

 

I find no need to use SIMFFB in the latest versions of DCS (although it was useful for a long time)

[Johnny Dioxin]

The pedals are far better with a controller board, I agree.

 

Do you still have the FFB activated with your extension fitted?

 

I have no doubt that the extension for my Warthog stick is very helpful, with all of the DCS whirly birds. It's only 150mm, though.

 

Mind you ,it makes control awful in Elite: Dangerous!

[Fri13]

What was the hover problem exactly?

 

As my only problem is that sometimes the KA-50 slips to some direction slowly, like 5m in one minute. So if I am waiting something, I need to now and then retrim.

But otherwise I get perfectly to hover so KA-50 doesn't slip to any direction.

 

And it doesn't matter if I move G940 stick around its "loosen center" at all. I can even monitor the input screen and confirm that stick isn't moving or giving inputs to direction KA-50 is slipping when it does.

[Johnny Dioxin]

This was the main problem - the helicopter continually moving in one direction or another and spending lots of time trying to cancel that out, whilst everyone else is getting on with the mission.

 

In this situation, I was advancing towards the enemy at about 150km/h. I slowed, whilst holding altitude (around 200ft), until I was at a standstill, then quickly engaged the altitude hold.

 

At this point, I started moving backwards at around 5-15km/h, so I tipped the nose down enough to stop the movement and trimmed at that point. The hover then held until I basically ran out of flying time and had to return to base.

 

I have been able to hover with the G940 - but never indefinitely - it always starts moving away at some point, sometimes quite drastically.

[majapahit]

MS Sidewinder 2 FFB does hover no problems

also Trim works, sets new off-'center' of stick, feels and looks great

which is even more important

I bought an xtra MS SW2 FFB from the net just in case

[zaelu]

I tried using simFFB again but it just disconnects FFB trimming. I get only centering force. Am I doing something wrong or something changed from some patches?

 

Using Logitech driver settings reverts FFB to functional again.

[xjiks]

There's auto-hover mode in the Ka50 this makes hovering much easier

[Johnny Dioxin]

The so-called 'autohover' mode is simply an altitude hold autopilot mode and is what I used to remain hovering (the lower right of the four square autopilot buttons on the AP panel). However, this does not prevent forward and backward or lateral movement, which is the problem that was caused by using the G940 - similar to the issue with it causing the A-10C autopilot to switch itself off at any moment, when it decided to show a spurious input that was not, in fact, implemented by the 'pilot'.

 

This may have been got around by using a larger stick dead-zone, but that in turn would have meant less accurate control in other manoeuvres - including attempting a hover by manual control, in fact.

[King_Hrothgar]

You are incorrect, there is an actual auto-hover mode on on the Ka-50. It is called "Hover on/off" and is toggled via a button on the cyclic (real aircraft). You must be in or very near a hover with the aircraft trimmed for it to work properly. You must also disable FD before activating.

[Johnny Dioxin]

The problem exists regardless of using one or other to initiate a hover.

 

Autohover engages the altitude hold - shown by the blue light in the AP panel. That's how it stays ay the same altitude, funnily enough.

 

I've also never heard of the necessity to disengage FD. Not saying you are wrong - just saying in all this time it's the first time I've heard it mentioned.

[Yurgon]

Autohover engages the altitude hold - shown by the blue light in the AP panel.

 

That is correct, but only a secondary effect of engaging auto hover.

 

I've also never heard of the necessity to disengage FD. Not saying you are wrong - just saying in all this time it's the first time I've heard it mentioned.

 

Flight Director overrides the AP and only maintains the damping of the engaged channels. With FD on, you can't make use of auto hover or route mode. These are really basic and elementary autopilot modes, so you should probably read up and watch some tutorials on them - if you don't use either, it's like flying with one hand tied behind your back; yeah, it's possible, but why limit yourself from making full use of the helicopter's potential?

[StrongHarm]

In my opinion, FD is only useful when you don't want to use Route Mode. When maneuvering I prefer to disable the heading and altitude channels, leaving the pitch and roll dampeners active. If you have Alt and Hdg bound to your HOTAS it's a much simpler matter than holding the trim button or engaging FD mode. Primarily because if you re-engage HDG AP, it locks that new heading as if you trimmed, unlike FD mode.