Persian Gulf Map Discussion

[Esac_mirmidon]

I mean this:

 

The DCS maps have a detailed portion, for SOH is 550x500, and a basic not detailed space. Terrain outside the detailed space is not useful because the low res and ugly looking BUT for SOH there is one thing different. THE SEA.

 

The sea has the same detail and aspect everywhere and because this map can be a Carrier Operations map you can place a fleet anywhere on the map. I dont care if is outside the detailed square, Is only sea.

 

This is de SOH editors map. You can se the Arabic Sea on the East. Place the 5th Fleet over there at some point.

 

 

Then start counting:

 

Start up, INS alignment, take off, rejoin, climb and ferry to the initial refuel point ( all outside the Iranian territorial waters ), refuelling, ferry to a point of descent before the Iranian sea border, low level apprach to Lar, attack, low level egress, climb outside the sea border, refuel, ferry back to the carrier, land.

 

 

This could be more or less 160 minutes or even more. An IMHO more than enough for any mission. Take offs, traps, two refuels, attacks, ferrys, climbs, low level ingress.

 

A 1800 km mission length is not a telephone both for me.

[some1]

I mean this:

 

The DCS maps have a detailed portion, for SOH is 550x500, and a basic not detailed space. Terrain outside the detailed space is not useful because the low res and ugly looking BUT for SOH there is one thing different. THE SEA.

 

Has this been confirmed or is it only your assumption? Wags said that this picture is most of the map, so my understanding is that this is most of the playable area and the detailed part is even smaller.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Yes is official. 90.000 square NM are 550x550 km. The black square you see in the picture. And you can see also a picture from the editor. The Arabic Sea to the East is inside the editor border and the sea is just the sea everywhere.

 

So the mission i'm showing is doable and everything except short.

[some1]

If marketing material for Nevada is any indication, ED gives the size of the whole playable map, not the detailed part (for Nevada they say 366'000 sq km while the detailed part is more like 250 thousand). Also, the trailer says 90.000 square miles, not 90.000 square nautical miles.

 

The editor picture is from TBS, not from what we are getting.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you assume more than we've been told by ED at this point.

 

I hope you're right.

[Silver_Dragon]

Has this been confirmed or is it only your assumption? Wags said that this picture is most of the map, so my understanding is that this is most of the playable area and the detailed part is even smaller.

 

By the "old" theatres in the shop...

- NTTR 366,000 sq. kilometres near 605 x 605 km, but low resolution map on editor extend to 456 x 391 nm (918 x 705 km)

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/terrains/nttr_terrain/

- Normandy 267 x 348 kilometres but low resolution map on editor extend 281 x 191 nm (520 x 353 km)

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/terrains/normandy_terrain/

 

Surely we expected more low resolution extensions on SoH.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Silver_Dragon

[Esac_mirmidon]

And the sea is unaffected by the resolution thing.

[Silver_Dragon]

If marketing material for Nevada is any indication, ED gives the size of the whole playable map, not the detailed part (for Nevada they say 366'000 sq km while the detailed part is more like 250 thousand). Also, the trailer says 90.000 square miles, not 90.000 square nautical miles.

 

The editor picture is from TBS, not from what we are getting.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you assume more than we've been told by ED at this point.

 

I hope you're right.

 

Nautical miles by glowing

Description has been fixed, miles is correct (or nm to be precise).

 

The TBS show NTTR editor and has the "same" of DCS World editor (previously to NTTR 2016 expansion), SoH can be "similar", surely upgraded from that pic. Awaiting Wags put some video show 2.5 with SoH.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Silver_Dragon

[CheckGear]

Ummm, what?

 

You mean that it's easier to create and play a mission where you can take off and hit your target within 5 minutes of flight. As opposed to actually spending time getting to the target like in real life.

 

You can fly a circle around this map in a Hornet without aerial refuelling, and this is an aircraft known for its short range.

 

Theoretically true. But load that Hornet down with ordnance and an array of threats to potentially deal with, it's not going to be able to take joyride around the Strait.

 

Yeah, I wonder if making a very detailed but small map is really the right approach for a modern combat sim. For an airquake arena or helicopter sandbox it probably is, but hard to make a plausible real-life scenario with that. Especially involving carriers.

 

I've said this time and again; the DCS fan base has a very bizarre concept of what "plausible" and "real-life" constitutes. In fact, they seem to confuse such terms with what they personally find to be the ultimate thrill.

 

Look up Operation Praying Mantis. That whole operation took place in the Strait of Hormuz. If that's not plausible or real-life, then I don't know what is.

 

The Arabic Sea is already on the map at the East.

 

You can place the 5th Fleet in a point somewhere outside the strait, for example, attacking Lar AB inside Iran from a point in the sea around 900 km. This place the Hornet outside the normal combat range of 750 km, forcing one refueling In and another out in the middle of Hormuz.

 

This mission can be easily over 160 minutes.

 

That's a good point. Combat missions are never the complete breeze people make it out to be.

Edited November 13, 2017 by CheckGear

[some1]

Theoretically true. But load that Hornet down with ordnance and an array of threats to potentially deal with, it's not going to be able to take joyride around the Strait.

 

It could still fly with combat load from any airport or carrier placed anywhere on that map, perform a mission and RTB with gas to spare. You would need to put an aircraft carrier outside the map like Esac_mirmidon suggests to actually stretch its legs.

 

And what about opposing aircraft? Last time I checked, Iran doesn't have any aircraft carriers. To my knowledge the only serious Iranian airbase on that map is Bandar Abbas. Lar is just a small Civilian airport with not much parking space for anything, at least on google satellite images. So the enemy F-4s and F-14's will have to start in air or take off from the middle of the map.

 

Look up Operation Praying Mantis. That whole operation took place in the Strait of Hormuz. If that's not plausible or real-life, then I don't know what is.

 

Well, the Sassan platform which was the primary target in this operation is already outside the map area posted by Wags, that kinda proves my point. Sure, if we get more low-res area outside the map boundaries, then you could put the units there yourself.

 

Just for the record, I'm not saying that you can't have any quality, enjoyable scenarios on this map. But the options are rather limited.

Edited November 13, 2017 by some1

[CheckGear]

It could still fly with combat load from any airport or carrier placed anywhere on that map, perform a mission and RTB with gas to spare. You would need to put an aircraft carrier outside the map like Esac_mirmidon suggests to actually stretch its legs.

 

Historically, the Gulf of Oman/North Arabian Sea (a.k.a. "Gonzo Station") was exactly where the carriers tended to operate. It wasn't until the Gulf War and after that carrier groups operating within the Persian Gulf being a "thing." In all likelihood, a clash in the Strait of Hormuz would have, for their own safety, carriers operating at Gonzo Station.

 

And what about opposing aircraft? Last time I checked, Iran doesn't have any aircraft carriers. To my knowledge the only serious Iranian airbase on that map is Bandar Abbas. Lar is just a small Civilian airport with not much parking space for anything, at least on google satellite images. So the enemy F-4s and F-14's will have to start in air or take off from the middle of the map.

 

Islands like Abu Musa and Kish have military airfields that should be able to accomodate fighters (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, like you pointed out, planes can start in the air to simulate flying in from other bases. Not to mention Bandar Abbas is the most consequential Iranian military facility along the Persian Gulf.

 

Well, the Sassan platform which was the primary target in this operation is already outside the map area posted by Wags, that kinda proves my point. Sure, if we get more low-res area outside the map boundaries, then you could put the units there yourself.

 

Sassan platform was located barely outside the map posted by Wags. Certainly not something you can make a big deal about. Sirri platform, the sinking of Joshan and Sahand and the attack on Sabalan all occurred well within the confines of the map. If a war between Iran and the U.S. or the Gulf countries occurs, it'll most likely happen here due to the strategic importance of the Strait of Hormuz.

 

Just for the record, I'm not saying that you can't have any quality, enjoyable scenarios on this map. But the options are rather limited.

 

And the options are rather limited for the Caucasus as well. Not to mention it's gotten pretty boring. But this is precisely why we're getting different theaters and will continue to do so. SoH obviously isn't meant to be the map to end all maps.

[probad]

all i see here are limited imaginations.

[USSInchon]

all i see here are limited imaginations.

 

^ this

[CheckGear]

all i see here are limited imaginations.

 

Playground's outside, kid. Use your imagination there.:lol:

[some1]

All in all, it would be nice to get official word on how big the map in the editor will be (outside the detailed area). The only picture is from the TBS site and we've been told numerous times that what is shown there does not reflect what we will eventually get in DCS.

 

My main concern comes from the size of the map posted recently by Wags, if the playground is gonna be bigger, even without detailed cities, then it's much more workable.

 

Islands like Abu Musa and Kish have military airfields that should be able to accomodate fighters (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, like you pointed out, planes can start in the air to simulate flying in from other bases. Not to mention Bandar Abbas is the most consequential Iranian military facility along the Persian Gulf.

 

Abu Musa looks too small for fighters, maybe as an emergency strip or base for a few light attack aircraft. Kish is more the deal, though nowadays it is another civilian airport, with jetliners and glass terminals. Since the map depicts modern times, that's probably how it would look in the sim.

 

all i see here are limited imaginations.

 

I have enough imagination to see problems that will require imagination to solve ;)

[Esac_mirmidon]

The editors map is not enough?

[Robert31178]

Manama Bahrain - where innocent Coasties go to learn what a sailor's culture is really about......

 

Wonder if they'll have my old haunt, a Mexican restaurant called El Compadre's, where you could get beefsteak ranchero with eggs and banana margaritas for breakfast!!

[CheckGear]

Abu Musa looks too small for fighters, maybe as an emergency strip or base for a few light attack aircraft. Kish is more the deal, though nowadays it is another civilian airport, with jetliners and glass terminals. Since the map depicts modern times, that's probably how it would look in the sim.

 

Both Abu Musa and Kish would make great targets, given how fortified they've become over the years.

 

Manama Bahrain - where innocent Coasties go to learn what a sailor's culture is really about......

 

Wonder if they'll have my old haunt, a Mexican restaurant called El Compadre's, where you could get beefsteak ranchero with eggs and banana margaritas for breakfast!!

 

Manama's like the Subic Bay of Southwest Asia, except for the unpermissive atmosphere.

[CodenameSection]

Abu Musa looks too small for fighters, maybe as an emergency strip or base for a few light attack aircraft.

 

How exactly is the airfield on Abu Musa to small for fighters, sure it won't be able to host Red Flag but it has a ramp and a nearly 3000 m long runway what more do you need?

[some1]

How exactly is the airfield on Abu Musa to small for fighters, sure it won't be able to host Red Flag but it has a ramp and a nearly 3000 m long runway what more do you need?

 

Yeah, on second look, it will do fine. I must have looked at one of the other islands the first time.

[CheckGear]

Yeah, on second look, it will do fine. I must have looked at one of the other islands the first time.

 

Told ya. :thumbup:

[Art-J]

The editors map is not enough?

 

Not enough until Wags or anyone from the devs reveals where the outer "borders" of the map we are getting actually are.

 

Old screenshot from editor in TBS - a separate product, is irrelevant for us, and any wishful thinking originating from it is still condtradictory to Wags' post a couple of pages ago (which in itself was far from "transparent" it seems).

[Esac_mirmidon]

The Sea is just that, Sea.

 

But you are right, just wait for some official editor pics.

[Robert31178]

The only thing unpermissive in Bahrain was pork products, and you could even get that at the British market - they kept them in the back behind a divider, kinda lile how video stores used to do with porno lol.....

 

Aside from the pork issue there wasn't anything thst a young man couldn't pay to get or do.

[dudeman17]

After reading the last few pages regarding the size and mission development imagination requirements I felt I should voice my opinion. I'm not very concerned about the size, I'm sure ED will do a fantastic job. I've always wished for the entire planet to be modeled to the level of detail of Nevada however, not only is that a tremendous undertaking but it also just isn't feasible with today's technology. It would require several terabytes of storage to hold a map of the planet. As for the length of a flight in the SOH, I would like to be able to have more options regarding airfields and even more ocean space to place battle groups and carriers. People talk about mission times, and while I agree that the average player won't want to spend all day flying to the coast so they can toss a single JDAM and RTB. But there are those of us out there who would enjoy that. Over the last week, I've been working on a mission for the Caucasus map for a few friends that going to last around five hours. That way we get to stop by a tanker for fuel and get a better taste of real missions. I personally I am the type of person who if I had the option would get into the A-10 and fly across the ocean. Why? Because I can. I would sit there all day pressing buttons maybe I'll get a bit bored. So I'll do a roll or a few sweeping turns just to amuse me. Now before anyone says I should go pick up FSX or X-plane I'll tell you that I'm not interested. I'd rather be dragged across the Atlantic attached to the pylon of an F/A-18 than fly in a civilian simulator.

 

My dream would be to one day have the Caucasus map and the SOH map be connected and modeled to the same level of detail. It would be a huge map and would expand the horizon of what is capable in the game right now. Not only would we have hundreds of airfields to pick and choose from but we would also get access to the regions of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and even a touch of Syria. Having all of this space and different locations would allow for very realistic scenarios revolving around the gulf war. Much of the current and future modules would be very at home in this region. Honestly, it seems to me that unless there is some unknown political reason for not including Iraq then we should absolutely get that. Just maybe not yet.

 

I'm happy to discuss this some. However I wont argue. Thanks in advance.

Edited November 15, 2017 by dudeman17

[Weta43]

I can't see they'll ever be able to let you load the whole world :-), but perhaps they could - once the maps form some sort of contiguous area, let you could choose for each mission a centre point for your map, a set of x & y dimensions then have the engine trim the available space out for the mission map from the available terrain.