Will VR change sim cockpits?

[Mr_sukebe]

I was browsing through this sub-forum earlier this week. Some AWESOME setups.

 

For all that, I was sat here wondering whether the availability of VR headsets will change what is being built.

Clearly the first gen units are expensive, as are the requirements for the PC running things. Additionally, when I read about them, they also seem to have further room for enhancement.

 

As VR units improve, does anyone think that the design of sim-cockpits will change such that the HOTAS, buttons and "touchy feely" stuff will still be there, but that needs for dials and other visual elements will simply disappear?

 

Just curious about the views on here.

[rrohde]

I think so. So long as the ergonomics of the flight controls are given, and the seating position is right, the rest of the immersion will be provided by the VR gear.

[hansangb]

I am by *NO MEANS* a pit builder. But I am building AHCP, UFCs even though I've been using Rift since DK1. It's easier to flip physical switches than clicking on monitor or VR screens. But I think most pit builders build it because its a passion. So VR or no VR, I don't see this thread going *anywhere*

[SkateZilla]

Yes and No, like anything else it's user preference.

 

I personally will continue to build my "tub" to mount my HOTAS and Steering Wheels to, as it will make it easier to navigate without direct sight (ie I know where all switches are on Warthog Throttle etc).

 

I also setup my TM MFDs, and it was easier and quicker to reach forward and press a button than to grab mouse and click a button.

[hannibal]

let see where the rabbit hole goes.

 

i couldn't get into sim on a monitor.

as much as i tried. trackIR was a fail for me, and view via POV hat was a debbie downer.

 

my money is on VR.

[metalnwood]

Yes for sure, some people will go with VR and less on the pit.

 

I had the full size pit cut and did a few for friends but right now I just have an aces II seat with mounts for hotas and pedals. I love the VR and am happy to press virtual buttons for the gain in immersion.

 

Building the pit was a hobby in itself and fun to do but now I don't have a need, that time is easily spent on other interests.

 

I fully understand that for a lot of people in to pit building that the pit building is of more interest than the flying so VR is unlikely to sway them away.

 

One thing I really like about VR is that I can get in any pit and be there no matter what my real pit, or lack thereof, really looks like.

[Deadman]

There will be cockpits and there will be VR that is why there are separate threads fro each. Like the title say there is Home cockpits ( Hardcore simming) and there is VR It just depends on what the user wants.

[metalnwood]

There will be cockpits and there will be VR that is why there are separate threads fro each. Like the title say there is Home cockpits ( Hardcore simming) and there is VR It just depends on what the user wants.

 

I dont think the distinction is quite like that. I could quite happily post my current pit in this section and it would fit in nicely. It is a home cockpit, more than a hotas on a desk but it is now geared for VR.

 

Most of everything I was doing on my a10 pit is gone as I dont need it in VR yet it is very much more of a pit than a basic home setup.

 

As VR interaction gets better it will no doubt change and perhaps the next thing for me is to add a collective. Using VR as my main display doesn't take me out of this section at all.

 

Also I dont see the distinction between hardcore simming and other being the fact that there are real buttons.

 

My flying has not changed from having no buttons, to having lots of buttons to doing it all in VR. What makes it hardcore simming has much more to do with the software platform and the procedures you follow. Not if you flip a real switch or a virtual one.

[Jimbo]

As someone with feet on both sides of the fence i'd argue it's a tough one to call.

 

having played about with a DK2 the VISUAL immersion was stunning. Looking up at mountains as you fly low down a canyon is an unbelievably realistic and immersive experience, not to mention the fluidity of tracking an enemy during a dogfight (yes.. I actually hit something!!).

 

BUT, then you have the 'where's my damned mouse gone' moment and you pause, lift headset, find mouse, put on headset, un-pause, click and you're away. it's a really jarring experience and ruins the momentum.

 

The other side is the PHYSICAL immersion. feeling the click of a switch or watching a gauge unwind is not only a LOT a easier but also just as immersive in it's own right.

 

What lacks in visual immersion is gained in physical and vice versa, so for me anyway, the jury is out.

 

We'll see what the future holds but my question is when and where will the 2 meet in the middle to give best of both worlds? There is a thread on the pit builders forum where someone was trying a green screen setup to blend the image presented in VR so the physical pit was in the VR display as well. thats something i'd like to see mature / work.

[RagingBunny]

I see a lot of good observations in this thread but I have not seen anyone mentioning the financial aspect.

 

Pit building is not cheap, despite all the cheap electronic components from china. Wood is not cheap, and you also need paint, and materials to make your panels, etc.

 

I'll have to wait for months untill my CV1 gets here. In the meantime, I'd love to build some panels as since recently, I finally have some spare time to do so again. But I won't, because I need that money to buy a new processor for the CV1 (currently running i54460). And I would not be surprised if my R9 290X doesn't provide the type of experience I'm looking for in VR. So I'm going to have to save up money to buy a better GPU.

 

Since money is an issue for me, I feel that I really have to choose between the two: either I go for VR 100%, or I go for pit building 100%. As some people before me have said, both have their virtues. But I've seen 2d and all the wonderfull things it brings. I'm curious about VR and want to try new things, so my money will now be going that.

 

Now I suspect that there will be other people who are pit builders, like me (somewhat), who make the switch to VR. But I do not see people making the switch from VR to pit building. I've seen too many people on these forums say that they just can not bring themselves to go back to 2d again (even tough it has advantages, such as resolution and being able to read a manual). So altough it pains me very much to say it, I am afraid that the pit building community will become smaller as the VR crowd becomes bigger. And part of that is, as I described, due to financial reasons.

[Mr_sukebe]

Thanks for the responses so far guys. Thought it would be an interesting discussion.

So one question that comes to mind is regarding the "button" situation.

Feels like we have two core options:

- Build/develop an appropriate set of physical "buttons", in which case the question has got to be how we find them with a VR headset on. Could that be done with the Vive technology that allows us to see some of the room. Could we have it recognise our "button box", so you can visually find it?

- Buttons and switches could be done in VR, similar to using the mouse to operate switches in DCS. Has the benefit of the switch being in the correct position in the aircraft in question, but leads to questions on how to interact with it. Could that be dealt with using say a VR "glove", which could allow you to reach out and "touch" the VR button

 

Don't get me wrong guys, I have no idea how you could do the above, just bouncing around ideas, such that people with much better technology skills might get sparked.

 

Thoughts?

[Mr_Burns]

I don't think you are right (IMO).

 

VR is virtual reality, its image based. Sim Pits are virtual realty (but not VR) physical based.

 

We haven't quite cracked VR in 20 years of trying, CV1 and others are now pushing the boundaries of mode day VR.

 

It will be another generation of VR that will combine physical switches with VR, perhaps like the F-35 helmet. But the f-35 has a glass cockpit so perhaps in future we will be poking a touch screen anyway, which VR can simulate.

[agrasyuk]

VR surely has its place. As it was already mentioned some will settle on VR instead of building a full cockpit for reasons of skill, time , money . or just like metalnwood ( who is while perfectly capable of building real pit) are more interested in the VR immersion aspect over the clicky toggles.

Hovever, my personal primary goal in building a pit is clicky toggles. Virtual mouse toggles, or even tacktile glove do not meet my primary requirements. Hence I have no use for VR in my build. Building a physical pit is sure taking time , but I find I very much enjoy the process of planing and building all by itself. And I know for sure I'm not alone in this madness.

 

So to the topic question: yes, VR will impact the number of physical pits built . No, it will not change physical pits as it doesn't meet all the requirement of someone who decided to go for such pit.

Minecraft is great, legos are great. One does not substutute another

[Deadman]

Ya missed the point the hard core has to do with the building and not the flying.

There is more to a replica pit than real buttons. Yes I know your very capable of building a real replica pit and are well aware of the various parts as i posted it all comes down to what the builder wants to do and the experience he wants. I never thought I would say it but I agree with Anton his explanation pretty well sums it up.

 

I dont think the distinction is quite like that. I could quite happily post my current pit in this section and it would fit in nicely. It is a home cockpit, more than a hotas on a desk but it is now geared for VR.

 

Most of everything I was doing on my a10 pit is gone as I dont need it in VR yet it is very much more of a pit than a basic home setup.

 

As VR interaction gets better it will no doubt change and perhaps the next thing for me is to add a collective. Using VR as my main display doesn't take me out of this section at all.

 

Also I dont see the distinction between hardcore simming and other being the fact that there are real buttons.

 

My flying has not changed from having no buttons, to having lots of buttons to doing it all in VR. What makes it hardcore simming has much more to do with the software platform and the procedures you follow. Not if you flip a real switch or a virtual one.

[Cripple]

Ooooo - here we go again...:music_whistling:

 

VR, as it stands, is predominantly visual. Yes, there is head-tracking, but that merely enhances the feedback to one's optical receptors. Certainly on the high street we are looking at an influx of headsets, not bodysuits or tactile gloves. Which mean the OP question can be rephrased as "will wearing a headset stop people building cockpits?"

 

I would think not. One is still going to need things-to-press-and-twiddle. In fact, the inability to see the old plastic typewriter may actually encourage more people to build switch-boxes and other assorted controls... plus somewhere to mount them all. Also, as touch-typists and anyone who has put their socks on in the dark can attest to, with sufficient practice one does not even need to sit and watch where one's fingers are going.

 

The flip side to this, as the OP has noticed, is that one also doesn't necessarily need all the dials, displays, decals, and rivets currently seen in the average pit. In fact, as some wag pointed out in a previous thread, you could literally use a cardboard box with switches mounted in the appropriate places. Personally I don't think pit building will end up this Spartan though, for no better reason that the greater the fidelity of the 'pit the less jarring the transition from physical cockpit to optical illusion (and back again). Plus you would like the GF to see it as a plane rather than a old box.:smilewink:

 

Surely a lessening of the complexity of a build is a Good Thing? Fewer dials = fewer gears = fewer drivers = fewer problems... no? Yes, if one happens to be contemplating a build now, or has began building in anticipation of VR. However consider the poor guys who've sweated blood building something that looks (despite being compressed-sawdust-and-glue) exactly like the latest ZoomDakka 3000. So exact that they can sit in it and their eyes are fooled in to the suspension of disbelief. Great. Only now there's a lightweight monitor that covers your eyes and functions as a 6DOF head-tracker too... but it means they can't see all their hard work. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu....

 

(You have to feel for them; it must be like back when LCD screens and projectors popped up - suddenly having a 13" CRT deadweight built in to the front of your "F-16" wasn't as cool at it seemed when you lugged it home.)

 

What does "hardcore" actually mean here, anyway? Short answer, not a lot; and the OED definition is certainly not a particularly flattering one. I suspect the (self-defined) "hardcore" set will indeed continue to build visually stunning pits, but this will no longer represent the minimum level of fidelity required to suspend one's disbelief ... if one uses a VR headset (which no one doubts do not currently represent a mature technology, and one must accept the current limitations).

 

VR is not the deathknell of pit-building. Rather the opening of another road to completion - which may not be the liking of all existing builders, either from sour grapes, elitism, frustration, over-investment in an existing approach, or a mix of all of the above. Take your pick, according to what you see written before you. :)

[metalnwood]

Thanks for the responses so far guys. Thought it would be an interesting discussion.

So one question that comes to mind is regarding the "button" situation.

Feels like we have two core options:

- Build/develop an appropriate set of physical "buttons", in which case the question has got to be how we find them with a VR headset on. Could that be done with the Vive technology that allows us to see some of the room. Could we have it recognise our "button box", so you can visually find it?

- Buttons and switches could be done in VR, similar to using the mouse to operate switches in DCS. Has the benefit of the switch being in the correct position in the aircraft in question, but leads to questions on how to interact with it. Could that be dealt with using say a VR "glove", which could allow you to reach out and "touch" the VR button

 

Don't get me wrong guys, I have no idea how you could do the above, just bouncing around ideas, such that people with much better technology skills might get sparked.

 

Thoughts?

 

I agree with Anton as well, it was a good summary. Some pits wont be built because of VR but because of the issues integrating the two, a pit builder is unlikely to change his approach to building a pit that doesnt use VR.

 

Regarding real buttons in virtual pits.. As mentioned, it doesnt take too long to move your hand to where a mouse or a small button box is placed.

 

In VR when racing and I move to my shifter, I never miss it and I never look in my car for the real one. Muscle memory is learned involuntarily and works wonders.

 

I made a small button box that is to the right of my stick a little and I put a couple of rotary knobs and a button on it. With my VR headset on I can reach for it and get it 100% of the time. It's useful for something like looking at a dial in the sim to put the cursor on it and then turning the real dial. I look at another knob, e.g. the obs and use the same real knob.

 

Little things that you might not do for a pit without VR but work very well.

 

Reading Mr burns response about the glass cockpit had me wondering if I could make it work where you have a piece of board representing the mfds's and using the leap motion have it placed in the right spot so that when you are pressing the buttons you are actually having some tactile contact as well. This doesnt currently work in DCS but there is support in FSX.

 

I am sure that soon we will see a lot of crafty ways people put together to interact inside of VR.

 

I have to admit that I myself am not a fan of the augmented reality in a VR headset so I dont want to see the outside world superimposed.

[hansangb]

Leap is still ways off. It's not granular enough just yet. I just got the Vive (CV1 is on order, will see which is better and sell the other one off) and I heard the controller tracking is incredible. But for DCS, it's not useful. It's not like I can add another H to HOTAS. I only have two hands :)

 

I suppose in time, tactile feedback gloves will make it feasible, but not just yet. We'll have to wait for the porn industry to innovate and bring the rest of the gaming industry with them. And sadly, I'm only half joking...

[vicx]

Same but different.

 

 

Sure, recognising the motivation for building a pit differs from person to person is important. One person sees the act of building a replica pit as very important to them while another person only wants the physical pit as a simulation peripheral. These two uses aren't the same thing BUT most people already know this, so we don't have to explain it in every thread.

 

Just focusing on a pit as a simulation peripheral, with a VR pit you COULD save a lot of development time not replicating visual elements like dials, VFD and labels, however your dimensions for tactile elements needs to be very exacting so that the physical exactly matches the virtual. It means the requirements for a Phys-Pit in VR are simpler BUT also harder at the same time.

 

Would it be possible to make a flat-pack Phys-Pit kit for players who just want a bare bones pit for VR immersion; it is too early to say.

[metalnwood]

Leap is still ways off. It's not granular enough just yet. I just got the Vive (CV1 is on order, will see which is better and sell the other one off) and I heard the controller tracking is incredible. But for DCS, it's not useful. It's not like I can add another H to HOTAS. I only have two hands :)

 

I suppose in time, tactile feedback gloves will make it feasible, but not just yet. We'll have to wait for the porn industry to innovate and bring the rest of the gaming industry with them. And sadly, I'm only half joking...

 

The leap motion may not be nirvana yet but have you seen some of what can be done with their new VR drivers?

 

See something like this and you can tell that it is much improved than before.

 

[ame]

[/ame]

[hansangb]

It is much improved. I have the Leap but tabled it due to lack of granularity. It's just easier to use the mouse because you have to try and hold your hand steady while trying to manipulate the switches. It's fun the first time, then gets annoying very quickly. But I'm sure things will improve over time.

[dux]

As someone with feet on both sides of the fence i'd argue it's a tough one to call.

 

having played about with a DK2 the VISUAL immersion was stunning. Looking up at mountains as you fly low down a canyon is an unbelievably realistic and immersive experience, not to mention the fluidity of tracking an enemy during a dogfight (yes.. I actually hit something!!).

 

BUT, then you have the 'where's my damned mouse gone' moment and you pause, lift headset, find mouse, put on headset, un-pause, click and you're away. it's a really jarring experience and ruins the momentum.

 

The other side is the PHYSICAL immersion. feeling the click of a switch or watching a gauge unwind is not only a LOT a easier but also just as immersive in it's own right.

 

What lacks in visual immersion is gained in physical and vice versa, so for me anyway, the jury is out.

 

We'll see what the future holds but my question is when and where will the 2 meet in the middle to give best of both worlds? There is a thread on the pit builders forum where someone was trying a green screen setup to blend the image presented in VR so the physical pit was in the VR display as well. thats something i'd like to see mature / work.

In one of the Gazelle videos released by Polychop Simulations, Spiderpig had a trackball on his knee. This meant that he didn't have to take off the DK2 to find his mouse.

[Mr_sukebe]

In one of the Gazelle videos released by Polychop Simulations, Spiderpig had a trackball on his knee. This meant that he didn't have to take off the DK2 to find his mouse.

 

That's a damn good idea. Think I'll go investigate grabbing one of those.

[hansangb]

Great idea. But if I'm honest, it's not *that* hard to find the mouse even with HMD's on your head.

[zahry]

If we talking only about 3D goggles based VR (oculus and so on) - it can't change cockpit building in any way - it's something suitable for Wii, playstation or xbox (if you have no friends and family) - you put it on and you are looking through a hole at 3D graphics and can't really interact with anything or anybody around.

 

Projector based Mixed VR is a different mater - that could potentially have massive impact on cockpit building as you can be physically inside the VR, take controls with you as well as retain the ability to interact with everything and everybody in normal manner.

 

I've got it working now with the SimPit Black Pearl and Icarus

 

(some photos have 3D vision off)

 

 

 

Video of hybrid (mixed VR) cockpit in action https://www.facebook.com/simpittech/videos/1005647266187302/

 

https://www.facebook.com/simpittech/videos/1005433672875328/

[Deadman]

zahry looks great i hope to some day get one from you.