So, is it possible to do a stable pick-up into hover?

[1.JaVA_Platypus]

I really don't think this needs to be "fixed". Sure it is hard doing a hover (without the "Q" key) but it is definitly possible. If you don't manage a take-off in DCS like the ones you see in the youtube videos of real-life Gazelle's isn't Polychop's fault. With some practice and joystick axis adjustments, takeing off into a hoover is definitly possible. Everybody seems to have different joystick settings. I would recommend 70% saturation on the Y axis of both pitch and roll and a very slight curvature. This helped me a lot personally.

[0xDEADBEEF]

I really don't think this needs to be "fixed". Sure it is hard doing a hover (without the "Q" key) but it is definitly possible. If you don't manage a take-off in DCS like the ones you see in the youtube videos of real-life Gazelle's isn't Polychop's fault. With some practice and joystick axis adjustments, takeing off into a hoover is definitly possible. Everybody seems to have different joystick settings. I would recommend 70% saturation on the Y axis of both pitch and roll and a very slight curvature. This helped me a lot personally.

 

Of course practicing makes your flying better. Still this does not change the fact that the FM is in its infancy (thats no critique). This needs to be "fixed", it is Polychops "fault" (this is no blame), because you can practice as much as you want, you wont be able to lift it off like a real Gazelle/Helicopter in the current version. Like many other details that are *not yet* simulated. Again: it is no surprise and very much ok that the FM is an early infant. But there is also NO point in saying it isnt so and you'd only have to practice ...

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I really don't think this needs to be "fixed". Sure it is hard doing a hover (without the "Q" key) but it is definitly possible. If you don't manage a take-off in DCS like the ones you see in the youtube videos of real-life Gazelle's isn't Polychop's fault. With some practice and joystick axis adjustments, takeing off into a hoover is definitly possible. Everybody seems to have different joystick settings. I would recommend 70% saturation on the Y axis of both pitch and roll and a very slight curvature. This helped me a lot personally.

 

It's got nothing to do with difficulty. It's simply not possible to lift into a hover without sliding forwards. Lifting quickly only masks the problem, but you'd never do this in real life as it's a recipe for inviting dynamic rollover. See example:

 

[Lanius]

And when we get that yellow chopper module?

[Eight Ball]

To those who can take-off into a hover, would you mind posting a track ?

Or a video with the control indicator on screen ?

I'd like to know how it's done.

 

If it's a track, do a hot start, tracks in 2.0 go bananas after a few minutes.

[Bearfoot]

No, Rongor is correct, it can't be done.

 

If you raise the collective smoothly and continuously straight into the hover without stopping in the skids light regime then you won't necessarily notice because you'll be airborne before you've slid forward an appreciable distance.

 

This is absolutely correct! Just tried it: keeping on pull up steadily on collective without pausing at the light-on-skids phase, and I get up into the air and can hold it steady. Well, I'm a little wobbly (actually crazy) on the yaw control as she gets up, but eventually I reign it in to a stable hover, without this uncontrollable slide all over this place.

 

I guess the title of the thread should be amended: it's the stable-while-light-on-the-skids part that is problematic. So I presume all the folks who are claiming (technically, correctly, based on the title of the thread) that it can be done are all pushing through the light-on-skids phase into a hover without pausing. While those who claim that it cannot, are not.

 

Correctly or not, for better or worse, while learning on the Huey I picked up the habit of pausing and stabilizing while light on the skids before pushing off to a higher hover. If the Gazelle FM is correct, then I will have to adapt. Otherwise, I have to wait till its fixed!

[Flamin_Squirrel]

To those who can take-off into a hover, would you mind posting a track ?

Or a video with the control indicator on screen ?

I'd like to know how it's done.

 

If it's a track, do a hot start, tracks in 2.0 go bananas after a few minutes.

 

Here you go.

 

Raise collective smoothly, feed in plenty of right pedal. A little rear stick as you lift then back to centre as you become airborne.

 

//edit: track is in version 2. I can do another in 1.5 if required.

gazelle.trk

Edited May 9, 2016 by Flamin_Squirrel

[Eight Ball]

Thank you. Can't watch it now but it will help a lot.

[Sporg]

Here you go.

 

Raise collective smoothly, feed in plenty of right pedal. A little rear stick as you lift then back to centre as you become airborne.

+1

 

I use the same method.

(I let the right pedal input follow the collective so I keep the nose straight.)

 

Even tested fully loaded in NTTR, works fine there as well.

 

Actually, in the video posted earlier with the blue Gazelle, you can see that he gives a little bit rear stick too, just as he lifts off.

[Rongor]

I also do it that way currently. Still this is not what it should be like.

Theoretically it should be possible to lift it up that gently that you'd have a moment, when just one end of only one single of both skids barely touches the ground and hold that position stable. Not possible here.

[Yurgon]

Here you go.

 

Raise collective smoothly, feed in plenty of right pedal. A little rear stick as you lift then back to centre as you become airborne.

 

//edit: track is in version 2. I can do another in 1.5 if required.

 

Thanks for the track.

 

IMO that's exactly what I'd call "jumping it into a hover". I've trained myself to do it this way, but it's not what this thread is about.

 

I made a track demonstrating the problem. As soon as the chopper starts skidding forward, I leave the collective in this position and try to stop the forward motion by applying back-pressure on the cyclic. Somewhere around 2/3 or even 3/4 of the full range of cyclic travel, the nose rises and then a tail-strike is imminent.

 

I think it might be possible to keep the chopper in a stable position without forward motion or tail-strike, but it doesn't look like any of the real-life videos, including some specifically of the Sa-342 with a Viviane sighting system.

 

I also don't think different loadouts or winds change this behavior because it feels the same in 1.5, and the same also with light and heavy choppers, and the same in different winds and at different altitudes.

 

Edit: Sorry, I think I misread the intention about your post. You actually wanted to show how to take off into a hover without staying light on the skids, didn't you? In that case, that's a good take-off and pretty much the way I currently perform my take-offs. Anyway, as long as it plays correctly, I hope my track will illustrate how it's currently almost impossible to stay light on the skids without skidding. ;)

Yurgon_DCS2.0Alpha_Gazelle-Pick-up-test.trk

Edited May 10, 2016 by Yurgon

[SnowTiger]

I'll try to save a track for you tomorrow morning.

I'm able to lift off and hover pretty well (to both my surprise and my delight). In fact, I'm finding that much easier compared to anything but flying in a straight line.

I find it very difficult to turn with any great coordination without losing altitude or just crashing.

I removed the Curves from my Rhino HOTAS and like xxxJohnxxx indicates, I use several Down/Back ticks on my trim and one tick right. The rest is all in the Hands and Feet.

Keep in mind, like in the Huey, smooth and coordinated inputs on the Rudder Pedals will contribute as much to a stable hover as any stick inputs. I correct forward and aft movements with my Pedals alone in many instances.

Anyway, I'll try to get that Track posted as early as possible tomorrow (Tuesday).

[Rangi]

Some might have missed this so I will repost here

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2769537&postcount=67

[Rogue Trooper]

just a quick pulse back seems to fix it just fine for me even without trim.

[SnowTiger]

Gazelle - Vertical Lift-Off and Hover - Track File

 

I tried recording a video but my ShadowPlay didn't record my voice (never has ?) and the video quality was the shits at best. I'm not sure why because I haven't had any problem with that until now. Anyway, I have attached a Track File to show that in fact, you can Lift Off Vertically.

Unfortunately, I couldn't remember how to convert a Track File into a video (although I think that is a feature in the ME ?!! .. can't remember). IF I could have uploaded the video, it would have skipped all the startup steps.

ANYWAY .......

 

Here is a Link to my Track File. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/jm6htzhhxvm6pl4/Gazelle%20-%20Vertical%20Lift%20Off%20and%20Hover.trk?dl=0

 

NOTE:

I do NOT use the Magnetic Trim function AND I use my rudder (pedals) as much if not more than my stick to perform and hold a steady hover (as is the case with the Huey as well .. in fact, even more-so).

[Flamin_Squirrel]

...show that in fact, you can Lift Off Vertically...

 

Only with an agressive pickup. Since you've missed half the thread, see explination below:

 

...It should be possible to very slowly raise the collective and lift into the hover. However if you raise the collective slowly, as the helo gets light on its (skids but prior to getting airborne), it starts moving forwards. At this point, progressively moving the cyclic aft won't stop the forward movement before it causes the helo to pivot backwards on its skids.

 

If you raise the collective smoothly and continuously straight into the hover without stopping in the skids light regime then you won't necessarily notice because you'll be airborne before you've slid forward an appreciable distance.

 

and

 

It's simply not possible to lift into a hover without sliding forwards. Lifting quickly only masks the problem, but you'd never do this in real life as it's a recipe for inviting dynamic rollover. See example:

 

[Rongor]

I absolutely agree with Flamin_Squirrel. Sitting light on the skids without sliding is the issue. So far nobody reportedly achieved this. If we don't find anyone capable doing exactly this (and then teaching us how to perform that), there is a problem.

[MBot]

Here is a demonstration of the issue. First 3 slides light on the skids, then a straight pull up into hover.

 

Edited May 11, 2016 by MBot

[Yurgon]

Here is a Link to my Track File. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/jm6htzhhxvm6pl4/Gazelle%20-%20Vertical%20Lift%20Off%20and%20Hover.trk?dl=0

 

Thanks for the track. But this time I'm certain this is simply not what the thread is about. :music_whistling:

 

You jump the chopper into the air by applying lots of collective. That's not the problem. The problem is...

 

Here is a demonstration of the issue. First 3 slides light on the skids, then a straight pull up into hover.

 

 

... exactly what MBot shows in this vid, and what the track I'd posted before should also show: Once the chopper gets light on the skids, it starts skidding forward, and there's maybe a very tiny spot some 2/3 of the full range of cyclic back pressure where the forward motion stops and the chopper stabilizes in a slightly nose-high attitude. But most of the time the chopper keeps on skidding, or tail-bumps into the runway. This seems wrong.

[Rangi]

So you guys are not happy with the explanation of the 3 degree tilt?

 

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2769537&postcount=67

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=166572

Edited May 12, 2016 by Rangi
Links

[Deezle]

So you guys are not happy with the explanation of the 3 degree tilt?

 

 

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2769537&postcount=67

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=166572

If that was the problem, a small amount of aft cyclic would correct it, it does not, nor does a large amount.

 

 

I really, really like the Gazelle, but the flight model is not yet perfect.

[MBot]

So you guys are not happy with the explanation of the 3 degree tilt?

 

I understand the helicopter slides forward on the ground due to the 3 degree tilt of the rotor. The question I have is why is it not possible to prevent this movement with aft cyclic without pitching up.

[Teapot]

I haven't got the module yet but will as soon as I can.

This thread reminds me a bit of a similar contention about the flight model of the AS350 Eurocopter in X-Plane.

Many were complaining about how twitchy and uncontrollable it's flight model was. There were even helicopter pilots on both sides of the debate but in my opinion what it came down to was difference in equipment throw between real-life full size controls and joysticks that we commonly use.

With that in mind, I modified my X52 and removed the centering sping .. and was able henceforth to micro control the chopper into any attitude I chose. Complete control .. it was an amazing change.

I'll certainly look forward to testing this out with the Gazelle asap.

[Rongor]

I understand the helicopter slides forward on the ground due to the 3 degree tilt of the rotor. The question I have is why is it not possible to prevent this movement with aft cyclic without pitching up.

And this is a (not your!) misconception by Ranqi. I see why the relation nose-down tilt and forward-slide appears reasonable on a first glance. But the truth is, the 'built-in' tilt is not intended to produce a forward drift while picking the helicopter up. And it certainly isn't allowed to induce such movement during transfer in to hover in ground effect.

 

In fact the nose down tilt of the rotor disc in 'neutral settings" is pretty common with helicopters. It enables the crew a more comfortable control during cruise flight. If the disc was not tilted, you would have to induce the necessary rotor disc tilt only by applying stick nose down. This would bring the whole helicopter in a more nose down attitude and therefore you would have to sit pretty straight upward with your upper body and your head would have to raise constantly to have your eyes at the horizon.

 

Yes, you might have to counteract the initial tilt when lifting up the helicopter, still touching the ground. If controls are applied correctly and your are leaving from a level situation without slopes, your front skid ends will lift up first. Then, applying more collective pitch, the back ends (one single end) of your skids will leave the ground at last. And all this without any lateral drift. It is this maneuver which seems impossible to do right now.

 

Hence this discussion didn't reach its end yet.

[kobac]

Okay I'll repeat post that I wrote in another topic, but it is more appropriate here:

 

In RL pilot can see all these small movements which make the helicopter due to a variety of moments that affect it during takeoff. So all these things are counteract with flight controls. Because of this Gazelle takes off quite nice vertically without moving forward or tilting the tail.

 

By vertical landing she tends to land first with the right ski down (more precisely the rear end of the right skis) and then lands on the entire right ski. After that lands on the left ski. No matter what the surface she never slip after landing, except of course on ice. :) Of course she can skate on grass or snow, even on concrete, if the pilot wants, or when beginners do not yet perceive how to fly her.

 

Excuse me for my English if I wasn't clear enough.

 

P.S. Just to add that you generally have joysticks that are short, and therefore rather imprecise no matter how you adjust the curve. Perhaps things would have improved with some extensions

Edited May 12, 2016 by kobac