New effects

[Aginor]

The whole block really:

 

(NEW) 10. Icing conditions. Many planes have-de-icing systems, and AFAIK different planes do or do not simulate them (and the icing that happens if you don't use the de-icing) for some systems.

The question is similar to question #6:

Will the DCSW engine provide functions for icing conditions, will new new modules (or even old ones!) feature visible icing effects, and if yes, how will third party modules be handled? (for example will the modelling of such effects and the de-icing mechanisms up to a certain degree be mandatory for a DCS module?)

 

plus:

what kind of icing could exist?

- clouds

- ground

- freezing rain

- others

 

Icing is a big topic of course, and some stuff is hard to do.

[shagrat]

The whole block really:

 

 

 

plus:

what kind of icing could exist?

- clouds

- ground

- freezing rain

- others

 

Icing is a big topic of course, and some stuff is hard to do.

 

From my personal experience at least the Mi-8 seems to have icing simulated in the high mountains. You can "feel" vibrations and if you don't activate de_icing fast, you lose lift rapidly.

Not sure if it is the blades or the motor, though. :dunno:

[Vitormouraa]

If I remember correctly the Mi-8 has an Intertial Separation System, but not sure if it's what you are talking about..

[Aginor]

There are some icing implementations already, that's right!

 

- pitot icing is implemented for most planes (no visual effect though)

- Mi-8 has de-icers, don't know to what extent it works

- IIRC Leatherneck's MiG-21bis had some kind of canopy icing visual effect at some point, or it was planned

 

EDIT: Expanding on this a bit: I hope for de-icers for the slats on the F/A-18C for example, including a visual effect. I hope I am not mistaken but I thought i read about such a thing existing.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Aginor

[NineLine]

This forum never ceases to amaze me!

 

it's simple, ED wants to strive for realism, so they want to compare themselves to real world examples, they arent trying to compare to other sims and games. We all know what rain looks like hitting a windshield, and there are real world vids of rain on a cockpit, its easy to find and use those samples.

 

The reason we shy away from comparisons with other sims as the discussions can turn into DCS vs SimA, and thats not really what this is about. We all know those discussions can get heated. It sucks but its what has happened in the past.

 

At the end of the day, I cant imagine too many things that need to reference another game to get your point across. Rain is pretty common for most of us, I know it is for me :)

[cichlidfan]

 

Rain is pretty common for most of us, I know it is for me :)

 

On the windscreen in an aircraft moving at 300 mph or more? ;)

[NineLine]

On the windscreen in an aircraft moving at 300 mph or more? ;)

 

Well in my entire post, I did point out that there are examples on the net of the real world effect, do you want ED to simulate real world rain, or make it look like a almost 20 year old graphics engine ;)

 

As a quick example....

 

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Edited July 5, 2016 by NineLine

[Vitormouraa]

This is what I am talking about! I love this vid.

[shagrat]

Yep, what I expected. After speeding to T/O speed not much “raindrops“ left...

[Aginor]

That was indeed expected, for that speed and canopy shape.

With helicopters it will look much different.

[Aginor]

Do you have any examples in videos or something? Or a good textual description how it looks? That would be very interesting.

[Teapot]

No sim in history has come even remotely close to capturing what falling precipitation looks like from the cockpit, let alone how it looks (or sounds) when as it hits the windscreen/canopy.

 

 

IXEG's 737 Classic does a pretty good job. Best I've seen, but only when parked or taxi!

[bkthunder]

it's simple, ED wants to strive for realism, so they want to compare themselves to real world examples, they arent trying to compare to other sims and games. We all know what rain looks like hitting a windshield, and there are real world vids of rain on a cockpit, its easy to find and use those samples.

 

The reason we shy away from comparisons with other sims as the discussions can turn into DCS vs SimA, and thats not really what this is about. We all know those discussions can get heated. It sucks but its what has happened in the past.

 

At the end of the day, I cant imagine too many things that need to reference another game to get your point across. Rain is pretty common for most of us, I know it is for me :)

 

The point I was trying to make was that said effect has been successfully achieved in another (older gfx engine) sim without much performance loss or the need for high-end CPU/GPU, and IMO that is a realistic looking effect. My intention was to provide an example of what is already achievable, rather than a comparison.

It wasn't intended as A vs. B.

 

Be sure that the final objective is none other than to contribute to generate some ideas/discussion that can help DCS become better. In the end that's what we all want I guess, even if there are clear differences in how we go about it.

 

Anyway I appreciate your post and clarification ;)

[Pitot]

Okay, As for the rain:

Given the shape of a fighter plane cockpit, there would be rain drops when not moving, but when you accelerate there would be only streaks of water going upwards/backwards, and after accelerating even more you'd probably have none on the glass and possibly some high-pressure condensation at places where glass construction is interrupted with metal frames. There would also be some streaking up to some point at the lower end of glass, where it enters the metal canopy construction, but at high speeds that would not exist too. It is awesome that graphics are improving in DCS, but let's not get unrealistic.

You can create the wanted effect in 2 ways:

1. The above mentioned one, by someone from ED staff, where you have an entirely new render layer over the picture,

2. Placing a particle emitter in front of the plane that would actually emit liquid particles to the plane.

To anyone using brain - it is clear that both options require immense rendering power. Apart from that, number of lines in the new code for any of the solutions is equal to the number of hair strains on a head of an average DCS player.

On top of that, you need to tell the game engine not to sync these effects client-server-client-wise. Other players should not receive info on your raindrops and pressurized water trails, because that would make the latency problems a monster. Given that fact, now you need to write a completely new piece of code that allows other clients to individually render outside effects when your airplane is in the field of view (those trails), which is another mountain of work.

 

Sum up: As far as I am also a person that wants to see as much as possible improvements in DCS and video game world when it comes to rendering all kind of awesome things, I would like even more that ED manages to deliver all that had been promised by now.

 

"Other Games" - Other games are done in other engines. Other games sometimes have much less underlying layers than DCS, so they can spare resources to render 500 individual rain drops on a glass with refraction included without your PC becoming the Eye of Sauron (big burning thing, that is). I personally feel like deleting posts that include other games is a bit too much, but I also understand admins because saying "in that game it is possible" while it's a completely different game engine is like living in Chad and complaining to the authorities because there are no snowy days in the year.

 

Edit: You can find Mryia video of rain takeoff on youtube. Even with it's flat, almost-vertical glass - after reaching a certain speed, there are no more raindrops or streaks on the glass. So is it really needed that bunch of people spend months of their lives so we can watch rain for 3 minutes on a piece of glass while taxiing?

 

Edit 2: If absolutely necessary to have rain: 1 - place a piece of glass between you and your monitor(s); 2 - Hire a minion with a sprayer and a fan; 3 - While flying, the minion should spray liquid onto the glass panel and blow it off with the (powerful) fan. We have people making physical cockpits, why not make a rain. (Disclaimer: Edit 2 is purely for fun and to make people laugh a bit)

Edited July 6, 2016 by Pitot

[Aginor]

I think we all agree about how it will most likely look at high speeds and forward facing windows and/or bubble canopies.

No effect at all is the closest to realistic at high speed.

 

But DCSW has WWII planes and helis, and taxiing and planes standing around.

So I do think that different rain effects are required to have a more immersive experience. So far so good, because that seems to be EDs opinion as well, that's why they announced such an effect is in the works.

 

EDIT: a few examples from helis for the sake of completeness:

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And yeah, the technical solution should IMO be (for the reasons you stated) the best-looking one that has a low performance impact.

 

EDIT: Also watch this: see the drops?

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EDIT: Just one more with snow:

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Edited July 6, 2016 by Aginor

[Darkbrotherhood7]

The only effects that I really want are the over-wing vapor and new explosions. Rain in the canopy probably would dramatically drop my FPS.

[Pitot]

I think we all agree about how it will most likely look at high speeds and forward facing windows and/or bubble canopies.

No effect at all is close to realistic.

 

But DCSW has WWII planes and helis, and taxiing and planes standing around.

So I do think that different rain effects are required to have a more immersive experience. So far so good, because that seems to be EDs opinion as well, that's why they announced such an effect is in the works.

 

And yeah, the technical solution should IMO be (for the reasons you stated) the best-looking one that has a low performance impact.

 

Agreed on taxiing/helis/wwII subject. But, concerning that, I will have to loop you back to my additionally edited post, and direct you to pay attention to the "Edit 2" at the end of the post:

 

This post

 

P. S. As I said, you're a respectable interlocutor. Cheers.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Pitot

[Aginor]

Haha, I really missed that second EDIT. :D

And thanks, same thought here. :)

[Vitormouraa]

Aginor, have you ever seen the DICEs (Frostbite engine) dynamic lighting? not only the dynamic, but all the artificial lights, it's awesome, I would love to see in DCS, yup, ED improved in 2.0 and it looks very nice, but I wanted to see more, inclunding in 1.5. The lightning effects are also really important.

 

EDIT: I really care about illumination..

[Aginor]

Actually I think many modern game engines kind of "overdo" dynamic lighting.

I am also not sure if those techniques are applicable to DCSW, so I guess we have to be a bit careful what we wish for. :D

The reasons are: Huge maps with many objects can make lighting very complex. The "bubble" helps a bit with that, but since in DCSW many people are flying (citation needed) we tend to see many objects that possibly have lights and/or shadows at the same time, and that is difficult to render.

Especially since lights are visible at huge distances (in real life you can see a burning cigarette for several kilometers with the bare eye) so people quickly notice if you cut them off in the distance.

FPS engines often don't have that problem, since the terrain or buildings or other stuff limits your distance anyway.

 

EDIT:

For me the most visible issues with lighting now are vehicle lights, for example the landing lights or search lights that do not illuminate water.

 

EDIT2: Actually I was pretty surprised about the changes ED did in 2.0, they reached a new quality concerning lighting that I doubted was possible to do in a flight sim without sacrificing LOADS of performance. They somehow managed to do that, Nevada runs fine, even on my 770

Edited July 6, 2016 by Aginor

[WinterH]

Only frostbite games I've played are new starwars battlefront and dragonage inquisition. Dynamic lighting look very pretty and way overdone in them... I don't have an issue since they are fictional settings and artistic license is fine there but I wouldn't want DCS graphics go prettiness for prettiness' sake route if it means over doing things.

[Aginor]

Yeah, as pretty as it is I think that would look weird in DCSW.

I have that impression even when comparing certain pretty WW1 and WW2 flight sims to DCSW. They look... strange to me somehow.

[Vitormouraa]

Well.. I love that lightning, the road reflecting the sun or the artificial lights, you know when you turn on the anti-collision lights? it's not reflected on the ground, that sort of thing. :)

[Aginor]

Yeah, that's a pity. Some guy here on the forums edited a few DCSW screenshots once, to include reflections of all aircraft lights on the surface.

It looked awesome!

EDIT3: Similar to this: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1782620&postcount=7577

 

 

EDIT: Being more of a gameplay guy I often forget to mention such things. For me working search lights take higher priority.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Aginor

[Vitormouraa]

Skate Zilla's Super Hornet, pay attention on the lightning, I even asked him why I don't see those in a few DCS modules, for example in A-10, it's a bit different, a few modules have a better (I guess an updated lightning effect) and others like Ka-50 doesn't.

 

[ame]

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