Operation "Blue Flag" - 24/7 PvP Campaign - ROUND 8

[Pikey]

Didn't see a mention of the Mirage radar lock bug (that allows 360 degree locking in STT). Stuff like that does make me not want to fly the Mirage in Blue Flag. I don't think BF can realistically react to all these issues quickly enough, so its like having spinach on the plate, you are just goign to have to eat the other stuff and ignore him.

[BodyOrgan]

I cant make a statement about the f15s rigidness and I will not speculate about that, since I simply do not know enough about the 15.

 

The mirage 2000 is according to everything I know of how it behaves irl fine FM wise, also it doesnt break with my knowledge of math and physics. OFC you can switch the FBW gain controll to fixed and then it will do some seriously phyisx stuff. But the same is the case with the su27, you simply cant model theese edgecases of unstable flight conditions without having the computational requirement which exceeds every single one of our machines no matter how overkill they are.

The su33 meanwhile is lightyears away from its obvious brother the su27 in terms of

aerodynamics in this simulation, misses things like stalling nearly completely and I mean honestly

its just very arcady. I do not mind broken edgecases with limiter switched off here either, but normal flight is already spaceship level. It does not even stall the engines if you are at beyond ridicoulous AoA and should be stalling.

 

Meanwhile if you stretch the mirages envelope to much the engine simply stalls and you are falling out off the sky like the unstable piece of metal you were without your FBW computer.

 

Also the mirage 2000 is in beta and is getting fixes every week as long as ED does patch and doesnt screw up. I didnt see an su33 patch in approx. 300 years.

 

There is the major difference I do see between the su33 and mirage.

While the mirage FM might not be perfect, its solid by everything I do know.

The Su33 SFM is simple spaceship. I do not even need to know how it should perform, it is simply breaking physix atm.

And while the mirage is sitting there beeing worked on the su33 didnt receive a big patch, nor is there constant contact with ED about its flight behaviour to my knowledge.

 

On the other hand the mig29 got a new external model so is obviously getting worked on and is imho not as borderline ridicoulous as the su33 behaviour.

 

 

In the end I would be fine if both mirage and mig29 got removed for beeing a lil broken in some aspects.

But due to my observations the su33 is simply overall on a whole different level then "lil broken".

 

:D If you do think the mirage 2000 is as broken as the su33 atm, please provide sources and or scientific reasons why you think so.

There is no reason to provide sources or scientific evidence as you haven't done so either. Broken is as broken does.

 

Yes because Su33 is so much easier to dogfight in than anything else, this is why it rules the skies in servers and dogfight comps. :confused:

I think too much thought goes into the negative side of a standard flight models when a large portion of the flight model is pretty good. Yes its not perfect but certainly not to be drawn in comparison with spacecraft and arcade.

The SFM aircraft are accurate to what the SFM will allow.

[Enduro14]

Body organ I'll be on all night lets do this. We have taken back some ground let's finish it.

[NaCH]

I cant make a statement about the f15s rigidness and I will not speculate about that, since I simply do not know enough about the 15.

 

The mirage 2000 is according to everything I know of how it behaves irl fine FM wise, also it doesnt break with my knowledge of math and physics. OFC you can switch the FBW gain controll to fixed and then it will do some seriously phyisx stuff. But the same is the case with the su27, you simply cant model theese edgecases of unstable flight conditions without having the computational requirement which exceeds every single one of our machines no matter how overkill they are.

The su33 meanwhile is lightyears away from its obvious brother the su27 in terms of

aerodynamics in this simulation, misses things like stalling nearly completely and I mean honestly

its just very arcady. I do not mind broken edgecases with limiter switched off here either, but normal flight is already spaceship level. It does not even stall the engines if you are at beyond ridicoulous AoA and should be stalling.

 

Meanwhile if you stretch the mirages envelope to much the engine simply stalls and you are falling out off the sky like the unstable piece of metal you were without your FBW computer.

 

Also the mirage 2000 is in beta and is getting fixes every week as long as ED does patch and doesnt screw up. I didnt see an su33 patch in approx. 300 years.

 

There is the major difference I do see between the su33 and mirage.

While the mirage FM might not be perfect, its solid by everything I do know.

The Su33 SFM is simple spaceship. I do not even need to know how it should perform, it is simply breaking physix atm.

And while the mirage is sitting there beeing worked on the su33 didnt receive a big patch, nor is there constant contact with ED about its flight behaviour to my knowledge.

 

On the other hand the mig29 got a new external model so is obviously getting worked on and is imho not as borderline ridicoulous as the su33 behaviour.

 

 

In the end I would be fine if both mirage and mig29 got removed for beeing a lil broken in some aspects.

But due to my observations the su33 is simply overall on a whole different level then "lil broken".

 

:D If you do think the mirage 2000 is as broken as the su33 atm, please provide sources and or scientific reasons why you think so.

 

Still broken.

There is no "scientific" reasons other if something is broken and is not allowed in one side, it should be the same for the other.

 

BTW I know very well the mirage capabilities & damage model... it was the only plane I used when was allowed in red side.

[roccoo]

yes, I wish more people were active on the BuddySpike site and took part in the tactical discussion in Red HQ, maybe they would then realise how important Pak3 is as opposed to defending Maykop

 

I'm not saying we don't have the pilots, I'm saying we don't have the slots! This was reported and I thought it was fixed but someone said it wasn't. If that's the case, it is a big big gift for the blue team.

As for the planes, we have mig21 pilots that can beat f-15s really well.

 

@ my red comrades: great job today, you're all heroes of Soviet Union. Daje Falcon!

Edited August 6, 2016 by roccoo

[microvax]

I'm not saying we don't have the pilots, I'm saying we don't have the slots! This was reported and I thought it was fixed but someone said it wasn't. If that's the case, it is a big big gift for the blue team.

As for the planes, we have mig21 pilots that can beat f-15s really well.

 

@ my red comrades: great job today, you're all heroes of Soviet Union. Daje Falcon!

 

Yeah beslan is still missing the mi8 slot. For defending the taken Airfields we have the same situation with f5e against su27.

[firmek]

There will be always some smaller or bigger issues with the full fidelity flight models. It's not correct however to compare Su-33 and Mig-29 with other planes even from FC3 as those are just in totally different league.

 

SFM: Su-33, MiG-29

AFM: Su25T

AFM+: SU25, A-10A

PFM: F15C, Su-27, A10C, Ka50, UH-1H, Mi-8

M-2000C: EFM

 

Quoting Wags "PFM: This is generations beyond an AFM/AFM+ ...", than AFM/AFM+ is much better from SFM which is just an basic, Lock On era model. I think it's rather fair to say that SU-33 and Mig-29 at the moment fly rather arcadish, give a feeling of flying space ship on a rails in void.

[Pronin]

MIG29 can't do anything F-15 cant do :)

 

MIG29 damage model is bad but at least it can be hit.

Mirage cant be hit by missile. I have video of MIRAGE missing TEN missiles while in slow turn.

 

I think its fair :)

[*Rage*]

Red team is doing a fantastic job defending and retaking lost territory despite overwhelming odds. Can't wait to get back from holiday on Monday and join the fight!

[microvax]

Red team is doing a fantastic job defending and retaking lost territory despite overwhelming odds. Can't wait to get back from holiday on Monday and join the fight!

 

I agree they are doing a great job but while retaking pak3 they were actually outbumbering blue 2:1 as well.

 

No statement about good or bad, I think its fine and indedd red is doing a good job.

[firmek]

MIG29 can't do anything F-15 cant do :)

Please... let's not even start to put the SFM and PFM at the same shelf.

The flight model is a DNA of a module. PFM can’t be created just like that. There can be a subjective feelings about how different planes fly but the facts about the quality and complexity of flight module implementation or total lack of it are solid.

 

MIG29 damage model is bad but at least it can be hit.

Mirage cant be hit by missile. I have video of MIRAGE missing TEN missiles while in slow turn.

 

I think its fair :)

I could also say as an example that I've been on a receiving side when Mig-29 fired IR missile on a A-10 that was on its 9, aprox 300-500m away and approaching it hot- Mig was directly at 12 of A-10 when it fired the missile. I know that M2000C had the super radar bug that was just fixed but it seems that Mig-29 has super IR's that it can shoot on targets that are at the edge of its rear hemisphere :)

At the end this is not related to the flight model as such and quite often not even to the modules themself. Simliar issues will appear, get fixed and then new one will come out. Some even during time of a single BF camapign.

The very day that there will be a no new bugs in DCS will be a sad day as it will mean that it has stopped to be developed :)

[Frostie]

I think it's rather fair to say that SU-33 and Mig-29 at the moment fly rather arcadish, give a feeling of flying space ship on a rails in void.

 

If that were fair to say then landing on the Admiral Kuznetsov or refuelling from an il-78 would surely be a first time, everytime success for a seasoned gamer.

 

Flight dynamics being improved doesn't equate to difficulty being increased.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Frostie

[firmek]

... Flight dynamics being improved doesn't equate to difficulty being increased.

Couldn’t agree more to this as it's very true and correct observation. On the other hand landing F-35 in Battlefield 4 is also not guaranteed to be successful in 100% of the cases but I guess we're not going to call it a simulation because of this :)

[roccoo]

Can we have our mi-8 slots back as usual on Beslan please? :cry:

[Frostie]

Couldn’t agree more to this as it's very true and correct observation. On the other hand landing F-35 in Battlefield 4 is also not guaranteed to be successful in 100% of the cases but I guess we're not going to call it a simulation because of this :)

I don't know why you choose to bring BF4 into this, simulated aircraft flight parameters are based on real life EM diagrams and arcade games are not.

[BSS_Sniper]

Given what's going on with the Mirage's perfect missiles/update screw up with the last update they should be removed or severely limited on the server until it's fixed. I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would disagree with that, given the circumstances.

Edited August 7, 2016 by BSS_Sniper

[BSS_Sniper]

There will be always some smaller or bigger issues with the full fidelity flight models. It's not correct however to compare Su-33 and Mig-29 with other planes even from FC3 as those are just in totally different league.

 

SFM: Su-33, MiG-29

AFM: Su25T

AFM+: SU25, A-10A

PFM: F15C, Su-27, A10C, Ka50, UH-1H, Mi-8

M-2000C: EFM

 

Quoting Wags "PFM: This is generations beyond an AFM/AFM+ ...", than AFM/AFM+ is much better from SFM which is just an basic, Lock On era model. I think it's rather fair to say that SU-33 and Mig-29 at the moment fly rather arcadish, give a feeling of flying space ship on a rails in void.

 

 

This one always makes me chuckle. Anyone that's flown a real aircraft, especially a jet knows that is exactly what it feels like unless you're in slow flight. The fact that the Su33 and Mig 29 has a SFM really makes no difference what so ever. I'd rather have a more realistic flight model but it really doesn't affect things one way or the other. I'd rather see aircraft radar get a work over. The way things are now, that is what is a bit arcadish.

[firmek]

@Frostie, @BSS_Sniper I guess you have the point. BF4 example was maybe not the most fortunate one also. I just wanted to point out the fact that fact that simplified flight models are rather far from in-depth representation of flight dynamics as they are not even reflecting aircraft performance envelope. From the AFM description we can read that SFM from physics and force calculation don't model wings and control surfaces. In this respect they seem to implement a basic rigid body physics which is not only domain of flight sim titles.

I understand that those are a specific details but I still believe that there is a difference and PFM modules are more challenging than SFM one.

Just imagining that one day Mig-29 will have PFM and that SFM Mig-29 would still be available at the same time - would putting one against each other be considered equal and fair? (To be clear I'm not imposing any "balancing") - For instance one side of BF gets PFM Mig-29 while the other SFM one?

Also managing the systems increases the complexity - but that's separate thing. I agree though that there are much more aspects that affect the complexity.

[BSS_Sniper]

@Frostie, @BSS_Sniper I guess you have the point. BF4 example was maybe not the most fortunate one also. I just wanted to point out the fact that fact that simplified flight models are rather far from in-depth representation of flight dynamics as they are not even reflecting aircraft performance envelope. From the AFM description we can read that SFM from physics and force calculation don't model wings and control surfaces. In this respect they seem to implement a basic rigid body physics which is not only domain of flight sim titles.

I understand that those are a specific details but I still believe that there is a difference and PFM modules are more challenging than SFM one.

Just imagining that one day Mig-29 will have PFM and that SFM Mig-29 would still be available at the same time - would putting one against each other be considered equal and fair? (To be clear I'm not imposing any "balancing") - For instance one side of BF gets PFM Mig-29 while the other SFM one?

Also managing the systems increases the complexity - but that's separate thing. I agree though that there are much more aspects that affect the complexity.

 

I'll have to agree with you. That was a great explanation.

[Frostie]

I just wanted to point out the fact that fact that simplified flight models are rather far from in-depth representation of flight dynamics as they are not even reflecting aircraft performance envelope.

Of course SFM is trying to reflect the relevant aircraft performance envelope that is what simulation is all about. It is called standard flight model not simplified, simplified implies purposely downgraded which it isn't, it is an FM originally intended to simulate the perfomance characteristics of the real world counterpart much like il-2, whos FM I imagine doesn't get anywhere near as much discredit.

This is how VEAO interpret the flight models considering they used SFM on their Hawk.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2415708&postcount=4

Just imagining that one day Mig-29 will have PFM and that SFM Mig-29 would still be available at the same time - would putting one against each other be considered equal and fair? (To be clear I'm not imposing any "balancing") - For instance one side of BF gets PFM Mig-29 while the other SFM one?

Also managing the systems increases the complexity - but that's separate thing. I agree though that there are much more aspects that affect the complexity.

Probably not fair for the SFM pilot because the PFM will be able to go to places the SFM won't. Not to mention the more options in radar and ECM features available to a fully modeled system. I really don't get the argument of more fidelity equals harder to fight in, the only difference in operation would be more options. It's as though some think you have to wind cranks and pedal whilst tapping your head to fight in a 4th gen fighter.

[Voodooflies]

Pretty sure the MiG-29 is harder to kill than the Mirage. The MiG-29 is typically 1 slammer and 2 heaters to kill.

 

As for the Su-33 flight model.

go to 3:30 and watch how retarded is.

 

That being said, the su-33 is a piece of junk, so put it in, wont make a difference balance wise.

 

Impressive skills.

[Ciribob]

Just wanted to say a quick thanks to all for really getting behind SimpleRadio and putting it through its paces! It's very exciting to see it actually being used and more importantly, working... :)

 

I hope Coltrogue doesn't mine me posting this link but it you want to see GCI on SRS have a watch:

[microvax]

[ame]

[/ame]

 

Just gonna leave this here. XDDDD

 

SFM very close to the real thing... mhhhh xDDD

[NaCH]

 

Just gonna leave this here. XDDDD

 

SFM very close to the real thing... mhhhh xDDD

 

Just gonna reply here,

Not to mention the 360 PIC capacity of the radar... I mean yeah.

Yup mirage close to the real thing ..

 

 

[firmek]

 

Just gonna leave this here. XDDDD

 

SFM very close to the real thing... mhhhh xDDD

Just to spice it up a bit.. reading the description of the clip, that Su-33 was out of fuel and it kept flying like that for more than 1h.