A10C Refuel "Auto-pilot"

[Thisdale]

Hey guys,

 

Been trying to understand and figure out why, there is an Auto-pilot that kicks in every time you connect to the KC-130?

 

 

 

What i can't figure it out.

Every time you connect, it kind of auto-corrects you and sends you up or down without your consent. It's maddening.

 

Note: this was present all the way back to LOMAC.

[dudeman17]

I can't say for sure however from what I have heard the a-10c has wake turbulence moddled unlike the the f-15 were it is always smooth. So my best guess is the wake turbulence is causing the plane to be thrown around behind the tanker. There is like someone out there who can answer this with a bit more certainty but who knows maybe I'm right.

[Thisdale]

I can't say for sure however from what I have heard the a-10c has wake turbulence moddled unlike the the f-15 were it is always smooth. So my best guess is the wake turbulence is causing the plane to be thrown around behind the tanker. There is like someone out there who can answer this with a bit more certainty but who knows maybe I'm right.

 

Maybe it's "simulated".

But essentially, i can sit behind the tanker forever without turbulence. The moment i make contact (taking fuel), the pig just auto-trims itself to some "other" settings. It's like it cancels my trim settings. So i go from super smooth, to jerky up/down. It really feels like when you activate the Hog's auto-pilot. It sort of jerks up and then settles. Except, during refuel, the settle doesn't happen and i usually end up in the tanker.

[Thisdale]

made a track... but the forum won't let me upload it :(

[jcbak]

I've refueled several times lately and have not experienced what you described.

[Gliptal]

What has changed lately is the boom now has a weight associated to it. It may be helping the aircraft to stay in position.

[Yurgon]

Been trying to understand and figure out why, there is an Auto-pilot that kicks in every time you connect to the KC-130?

 

What i can't figure it out.

Every time you connect, it kind of auto-corrects you and sends you up or down without your consent. It's maddening.

 

This is the first time I ever hear of such a thing. I've never experienced anything remotely like what you describe.

 

What I have experienced for a while now is that because of the ultra-lazy boom operator, the A-10C might get tossed down when the nose hits the boom without connecting to it. This can be quite violent (and the noses of real aircraft seem to suggest something like it happens in RL as well ;)), but it only happens when there's no connection to the boom.

 

Can you use a hosting service like Dropbox to share your track? I'd be very interested to see what happened.

[Thisdale]

This is the first time I ever hear of such a thing. I've never experienced anything remotely like what you describe.

 

What I have experienced for a while now is that because of the ultra-lazy boom operator, the A-10C might get tossed down when the nose hits the boom without connecting to it. This can be quite violent (and the noses of real aircraft seem to suggest something like it happens in RL as well ;)), but it only happens when there's no connection to the boom.

 

Can you use a hosting service like Dropbox to share your track? I'd be very interested to see what happened.

 

Good idea! Forgot all about dropbox.

 

Here's the track.

During flight, i've tried various ways to approach to the boom. Sometimes it works fine. Other times the stick becomes solid and the plane gets catapulted.

I've tried with the refueltrap open and closed as well (seems to happen in both instances).

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jzql9hgkid99bz2/a10crefueljerking.trk?dl=0

[Yurgon]

Here's the track.

During flight, i've tried various ways to approach to the boom. Sometimes it works fine. Other times the stick becomes solid and the plane gets catapulted.

I've tried with the refueltrap open and closed as well (seems to happen in both instances).

 

What I've witnessed is indeed your plane getting tossed around because it makes contact with the boom (without the boom plugging into the refueling receptacle).

 

Around the first time you came close, the boom was too low, and your aircraft practically slid up along the boom.

 

A little later, the boom hit the nose either forward or aft of the receptacle, causing the aircraft to get tossed down.

 

Whenever you got a solid connect, everything looked fine (except for one or two times when there was a bounce first and then a connect just moments later).

 

My impression is that in terms of flight modeling, everything is fine. The problem is that the boom operator isn't helpful at all, so you actually have to fly the aircraft into the boom. As slight bit off and you get a collision instead. For all I know, IRL you'd fly into position and then the boom operator would plug you in.

 

But maybe someone else has time to watch the track as well and offer some more advice.

 

When I tried an AAR just a couple hours ago, I had one or two bounces like the ones happened to you, but basically if you manage to maneuver the receptacle into the boom and keep the closure speed very low, you should be okay.

 

Edit: I took the liberty to record a track from your mission. Funnily enough, the only bounce I got was when I hit the boom after the transfer was complete. ;)

 

Here you go: https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/yurgon_A-10C_1.5.4_aar_nojerk.trk

Edited August 28, 2016 by Yurgon
Added Track File

[Gliptal]

Just completed a succesfull AAR with no problems. I don't know if it was some sort of placebo effect, but even after not having flown for more than a month I found AAR quite easier than I remembered. I managed to top off both tanks without a disconnect from around 3000 pounds, at night and during a racetrack turn. I believe it's the new boom physics being in place.

[SharpeXB]

The problem is that the boom operator isn't helpful at all, so you actually have to fly the aircraft into the boom. As slight bit off and you get a collision instead. For all I know, IRL you'd fly into position and then the boom operator would plug you in.

I haven't tried AAR in a while but I don't think anything has changed. In the game, when you get in the right position, the boom operator will raise the boom and then connect it to you. You just fly off the tanker, don't fly into the boom.

[Yurgon]

I haven't tried AAR in a while but I don't think anything has changed. In the game, when you get in the right position, the boom operator will raise the boom and then connect it to you. You just fly off the tanker, don't fly into the boom.

 

Doesn't reflect my experience at all.

 

At a certain point, the boom will be raised, and then the operator might even try to get it close to the receptacle, but I've waited ages for him to actually plug it in. In my experience, the pilot actually has to force the connect.

 

I'm not sure if I've ever been able to fly off the tanker in DCS, but right now (I'd say 1.5 in general), I think it's very unlikely to connect this way.

[MasterZelgadis]

Hm, long time ago since my last refueling attempts, but my experience was that you don't have to fly into the boom, just hold the correct position a few seconds and the boom operator plugs it in. Trying to fly into the boom was actually the reason, why refueling was so hard, became much easier, when you realize you don't have to force the connect, only hold the correct position

[QuiGon]

What has changed lately is the boom now has a weight associated to it. It may be helping the aircraft to stay in position.

 

Has this change been mentioned anywhere?

[Gliptal]

Has this change been mentioned anywhere?

Yes, but I can't remember where.

[SharpeXB]

Doesn't reflect my experience at all.

 

At a certain point, the boom will be raised, and then the operator might even try to get it close to the receptacle, but I've waited ages for him to actually plug it in. In my experience, the pilot actually has to force the connect.

 

I'm not sure if I've ever been able to fly off the tanker in DCS, but right now (I'd say 1.5 in general), I think it's very unlikely to connect this way.

Just tried it again. I don't see that anything has changed.

Get in station behind the tanker and request "ready pre-contact" the tanker replies "close to contact" then advance slowly into station and the boom will retract. Continue in and hold position. Relative to the tanker, not the boom. Don't even look at the boom. Hold there and the operator will connect. If you become disconnected remember to press the nose wheel steering button to reset the port.

This all takes weeks of practice so don't expect to get it right the first time. Or tenth or fifteenth time... You have to hold position steady with the tanker. Not the boom. The boom moves. Once again don't even look at the boom.

[Thisdale]

Just to be clear, my OP is not about the technique. It's about the weird behavior surrounding it. I can connect and refuel fine.

 

You make contact; Then suddenly, your plane is pushed upward (near-collision with the KC-130's tail) with no input on my part. On a practice on Aerobatics online yesterday. I got the same issue. This happened more than once.

 

 

I'd understand the explaination of "the straw pushing you down somewhat". But pushed literally pushed upward into the Tanker's tail makes no sense. And i have no control over it.

 

It's figuratively like if you'd tap the A10's nose up with your finger. It pitches up 10 degrees like magic.

 

I'm really starting to think that on contact, there is a Reset Trim that occurs momentarily[bug]. Because after the "pitch up event", i can settle the hog back (pull throttle, stabilize, reengage...) and i can connect normally.

[Sierra99]

I can't say for sure however from what I have heard the a-10c has wake turbulence moddled unlike the the f-15 were it is always smooth. So my best guess is the wake turbulence is causing the plane to be thrown around behind the tanker. There is like someone out there who can answer this with a bit more certainty but who knows maybe I'm right.

 

Wake turbulence occurs > behind < the aircraft in question. I.E. If the A-10C wake turbulence is modeled it would affect an airplane flying behind it, not the airplane in front of it. If the KC-135 has wake turbulence modeled THAT might have an affect on AR. Likewise if A-10C "Bow Wave", (the air being pushed in front of the aircraft) is being modeled, that could affect AR as well since it would interact with the tankers wake turbulence...if modeled.

 

Sierra99

[Vitormouraa]

Might be the connection, did you try AAR in Singleplayer?

 

EDIT: I don't see that too, might be the connection as I said, if I was you I would test in SP and see if that happens as well.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Vitormouraa

[Gliptal]

Might very well be something with the server if you're seeing this in MP. I'm not seeing this behaviour in SP at all.

[flyco]

I have experienced similar problems when the MP connection was not stable. You can also see fellow flight members suddenly jumping 10ft into the air. As suggested, try this in SP and just fly close to the tanker for a while to see if it is jittery.

 

That said, I have found that the boom operator does seem to have taken to swishing it about a bit violently just recently, so it could be a genuine bug.

[DirtyFret]

Hmm, I havent had any issues with SP AAR refueling. As a matter of fact I took it upon my self to improve my skills and remove the fear of AAR. I did around 1-2hrs/week of AAR training for about 3months and now I reached my first milestone: No-disconnects from about 40% full in daytime with good weather.

 

TRACK

Edited August 29, 2016 by DirtyFret

[Yurgon]

You make contact; Then suddenly, your plane is pushed upward (near-collision with the KC-130's tail) with no input on my part. On a practice on Aerobatics online yesterday. I got the same issue. This happened more than once.

 

That's really weird. When I watched your track, I witnessed no problems of this kind after you'd successfully connected. In the replay I watched, what you describe happened whenever you weren't connected yet.

 

I know track replays aren't perfect, but until the end things appeared to be very much in sync for me, so I'm not sure whether our difference in perception has to do with botched recordings.

 

I can only reiterate that what I observed in your track looked perfectly normal - the aircraft was bounced around because it hit the boom without connecting. However, I did not notice any unexpected behavior after you had successfully connected.

 

This would seem to be a rare case where a video of the event would be more useful than a track. Can you record a video and share it here?

 

Just tried it again. I don't see that anything has changed.

Get in station behind the tanker and request "ready pre-contact" the tanker replies "close to contact" then advance slowly into station and the boom will retract. Continue in and hold position. Relative to the tanker, not the boom. Don't even look at the boom. Hold there and the operator will connect.

 

Nope, the operator won't, at least in my case. I just tried again in the mission Thisdale had posted. For like 3 minutes I flew as close to the boom as I could without pushing my nose into it, and it never connected.

 

Then I flew a training mission on a 2.0 server in MP and the exact same thing happened, so I'm pretty sure this particular phenomenon is tied neither to MP/SP nor to 1.5/2.0.

 

Tell you what. Here's my track from the flight in 1.5: https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Yurgon_A-10C_1.5.4_AAR_Lazy_Boom.trk

(Might be interesting for Thisdale as well, because around 12:03:40 in-game time I once bounced off the boom without having connected to it).

 

A few screenshots from my own replay of that track (roughly 1.5 MB each):

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_01.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_02.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_03.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_04.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_05.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_06.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_07.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_08.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_09.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_10.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_11.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_12.jpg

https://www.yurgon.de/uploads/dcs/Screen_160830_13.jpg

 

I already posted another track a few posts ago in this thread.

 

Why don't you...

a) look at these tracks and tell me what I did wrong and

b) record a track of your own that shows your point precisely?

 

Because as of right now, I am 99.9% convinced that the boom operator will not plug the client in. The boom will follow the player aircraft (more or less precisely aimed at the receptacle), but even with the player just inches from the boom, it will not extend the boom in order to connect. On the contrary, right now the player is forced to fly the receptacle into the boom.

 

PS: In my case, the tanker's reply to "Ready pre-contact" is "Cleared contact", not "Close to contact". Could you double-check that you have the latest version of DCS World installed (1.5.4.55952 as of the writing of this post)?

[Ilyushka00]

Hey guys,

 

Been trying to understand and figure out why, there is an Auto-pilot that kicks in every time you connect to the KC-130?

 

 

 

What i can't figure it out.

Every time you connect, it kind of auto-corrects you and sends you up or down without your consent. It's maddening.

 

Note: this was present all the way back to LOMAC.

 

Are you sure it's the autopilot kicking in? It's been a while since I've air-refueled from good ol' Texaco, but what I usually experience when landing is that the plane pitches up aggressively right before touchdown, usually happens when a flight of Falcons or Eagles have just landed. So it may be a small glitch in the way wake turbulence is supposed to be simulated.

[Frederf]

Do you have the gun PAC switch armed? Is this happening slowly as you take on fuel weight?