2021 (and earlier) DCS Newsletter Discussion Thread

[ivo]

so will we get updates every two weeks? This fact does not convince me too many modules never finished, also the desire to extend the audience of alpha testers only leads to confusion (yes alpha tester because the game will always be in beta).

[Paco]

I wish the Hoggitt exchange regarding development at ED was posted here. Although a fan of ED, I was (am) critical of the recent update and lack of progress on their EA modules. Having said that, after going to Hoggitt to read the updates there and the responses by Nick Grey, my confidence is somewhat buoyed. Honesty and transparency goes a long way. Hoping for a better 2020 and some finished modules.

[Shuenix]

I realy like the idea with the closed Beta team and I think it will be a big succes if managed correctly.

 

Well done

[Shuenix]

I'm sorry to say, Kate Perederko.

 

 

But reading that 2010 list of requirements for Beta Testers, if you are still aiming for an invitation only model, then it will never be an eclectic and representative group. It's just "the buddies" system that troubles me, invalidating almost all other aspects listed.

 

You should allow candidates with proven capabilites to apply to beta testing, not searching the forum for the biggest poster or most active lurker.

 

I disagree.

The point is that ED gets some testers they can and will work with on their termes. It doesn't matter if you the best pilot on on the earth, if you can't communicate as they want it.

 

As I see it, they want a TEAM, not a bunch of hotshots :-)

[Arctander]

@Shuenix the point possibly being they can select people as they wish, and exclude who they wish. there’s a risk that that becomes a clique or a a bunch of yes men (and women) and loses effectiveness so I agree with @BlueAngel

 

Also there is no way I would want to do this. Given the one MP bug I raised took 11 months just to be acknowledged (and last I checked it still wasn’t fixed!) - I would just get stressed that so many bugs I report are just being let through and stay unaddressed for weeks/months. I wonder how the current community testers feel seeing the reaction to 2.5.6? I would expect that they caught a lot of the issues and reported them.

 

I’m guessing It’s a pretty thankless task as you would be caught between wanting to do a good job, knowing that issues were caught in testing, but weren’t addressed, but likely you wouldn’t be able to talk about it.

 

Hoping they do as they say and massively tighten up.

[Silver_Dragon]

ED has a "Personal Request" list available.... I recompilate them in a forum post.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=217832

 

And ED has very clear about the Beta Tester lever require to work into DCS.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3924185&postcount=14

 

Contact with ED team.

[BIGNEWY]

@Shuenix the point possibly being they can select people as they wish, and exclude who they wish. there’s a risk that that becomes a clique or a a bunch of yes men (and women) and loses effectiveness so I agree with @BlueAngel

 

Also there is no way I would want to do this. Given the one MP bug I raised took 11 months just to be acknowledged (and last I checked it still wasn’t fixed!) - I would just get stressed that so many bugs I report are just being let through and stay unaddressed for weeks/months. I wonder how the current community testers feel seeing the reaction to 2.5.6? I would expect that they caught a lot of the issues and reported them.

 

I’m guessing It’s a pretty thankless task as you would be caught between wanting to do a good job, knowing that issues were caught in testing, but weren’t addressed, but likely you wouldn’t be able to talk about it.

 

Hoping they do as they say and massively tighten up.

 

 

Being a closed beta tester is not for everyone, you do need to be capable of testing and conversing with the team when reporting issues in a calm, polite and professional way, implying they are yes men is insulting, and could not be further from the truth.

 

I started as a volunteer tester and enjoy it for many years, the team we have now do some great work and we are grateful for it.

 

Thanks

[Shuenix]

@Shuenix the point possibly being they can select people as they wish, and exclude who they wish. there’s a risk that that becomes a clique or a a bunch of yes men (and women) and loses effectiveness so I agree with @BlueAngel.

 

It realy doesn't matter if it's yesmen or backclappers or whatever they are, as long as the job gets done.

If it was me, I would also decide who to take in. I would take the guys I believe in. So would you.

You don't need hotshot pilots to fly from a to b and bomb some targets or whatever ED have in mind.

 

As I see it, such a team should consist of veterans and newbies. Newbies often ask questions, that a veteran never will do.

 

I hope we will get a productive Closed Beta team and may they have fun in doing their work.

[Flarpt]

Reddit Information release & Update

 

I am VERY grateful to Kate Perederko the chief operating officer of Eagle Dynamics

who gave us the link initially for this Reddit release of info.

What a breath of fresh air for the author to speak candidly and clearly about ED's investments of resources into improving this sim. And where the real work is being focused.

 

After not flying any DCS whatsoever for many weeks now I thought to check back in and see if anything had changed from the last big 2020 update video and postings. What made me finally take a break from DCS for the first time in over a decade was their usual yearly unfulfilled claims of working to improve the core of DCS for better performance. Indeed I have updated my personal system 3 times in 10 years with the goal of a better DCS experience. But those upgrades never delivered and were always immediately nerfed to death due to DCS 'anti-improvement-updates'. No need to rewrite what hundreds have shared about DCS 'core updates and improvements' wrecking their performance over the last many years here.

 

I had already addressed that this was a yearly unfulfilled 'goal' of ED for the last several years myself. It never goes anywhere, but its great to learn that most others feel the same way and are tired of their own fruitless and ever endless websearches scouring for anything at all that might make this single-thread-single-core-sim run just 1 fps better than last year.

 

Anywho, to get back to the nature of this post, I am VERY Thankful to Reddit author Kate Perederko the chief operating officer of Eagle Dynamics for her upfront sharing of just how impossible a time ED has had this decade in working to get this ancient-coded sim to work on more than just one thread or core on a modern PC. I felt her frustration and pain describing their wrestling with the ancient 'Spaghetti code' that she described as DCS. I understand better now, and I thank her for her article.

 

Added to her article I also learned a great deal in my stay-cation away from DCS these last many weeks.

First, I played a lot more and flew a ton more in other modern-PC friendly sims. Actually this is an understatement as I flew about 80% more in this time away. I spent time flying in other sims that I typically had wasted scouring the web/forums/Youtube etc... for anything to help DCS run better.

 

When you stop and break the habit and then take that time and spend it having FUN elsewhere then you'll get it yourself. It will shock and sadden you as it did me thinking about how much nightly/weekly time I had wasted in the last 11 years fruitlessly trying to get a kite like DCS to fly supersonic on a modern PC. DCS is beautiful, yes; but run well or optimized, not yet.

 

I had purchased pretty much everything DCS going back well past the Lomac days. And DCS does run if you can look past the stutters and the blinding-horror that is DCS in VR....

But after the FREEDOM I have experienced these last 30+ days of flying other working sims and games AWAY from DCS, I simply cannot go back to this failed relationship with ED.

As admitted in the Reddit article their goals for actual performance increases, let alone implementation of Vulkan are so far future as to not even being given any hope of bothering to pretend to set a goal-date. Not coming, not happening. Upgrade your PC all you want, it won't matter here at all or past the next few 'updates'.

 

With that said my wallet remains sealed shut to DCS. And after the horror show that the last 'improvement' update was for most I won't be allowing DCS to update either. I am pretty much resigned to uninstalling but I honestly just have not had the guts to just yet. But after 30+ days of flying and recreating in many other modern and modernized sims I simply have no desire to jump back into DCS for another stutterfest evening of headaches trying to fly VR or searching for a mod that might actually help this time.... Just not worth it any longer.

 

I thank the author's honestly and I thank ED for over a dozen years of DCS. In leaving this dysfunctional sim relationship I do harbor the hope that maybe one year when I check back in then I will find that ED at some point literally did invest resources into updating DCS to work on modern multi-core PC's, like ALL modern games and sims have done or are actually working to do.

It is many hundreds of dollars of personal investment lost to me in aircraft and maps and addons, but in the next months and years alone I will actually be FLYING and FIGHTING and having FUN in other sims and games instead of searching the internet for DCS performance mods, let alone missing targets because of haphazard stutters and freezes, CTD's too many to count and defending real-world-reality from fanboy attacks.

 

I will check back in maybe next year seeing as their is zero hope given of ANY honest or real performance updates or Vulkan implementation for at least all of 2020 according to what I have read. What matters to me is a good fly experience. DCS is a pretty Sim, but it does not run well, smooth or stable and there is no advertised honest hope of this any time soon.

 

I don't speak for everyone, but I bet I speak for a great many pilots, and I know I am speaking my heart as much as Kate has for us all. Good luck Ed, I wish you massive success at those optimizing goals. Your success is all of our success. Looking forward to a future DCS that is optimized, Vulkanized and able to utilize a modern PC like the sims I will be flying from now on. It will be a wonderful thing IF it happens for us all in DCS one day in the years to come☺.

 

Kate Perederko Upate article Link:

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Flarpt

[norbot]

...But after 30+ days of flying and recreating in many other modern and modernized sims I simply have no desire to jump back into DCS for another stutterfest evening of headaches trying to fly VR or searching for a mod that might actually help this time.... Just not worth it any longer...

 

Could you name those other modern and modernized sims? I don't know any. At least not with modern aircraft. :huh:

[ivo]

I'm sorry to read certain posts, (not that Flarp is completely wrong) however it is true there are too many incomplete modules and we should pay attention to those who "open the doors" see Veao, perhaps we could consider releasing finished modules on stable versions of the game and make updates every two or three times a year, when you are sure of what you are doing.

[Tom Kazansky]

Could you name those other modern and modernized sims? I don't know any. At least not with modern aircraft. :huh:

 

 

This.

 

 

 

My Google must be broken. Every time I search for sims that have FA-18, F-16, F-14, F-5, Viggen, Warbirds, KA-50, MiGs ... in high fidelity with clickable cockpits in a finished or unfinished state I just get one result: DCSW.

 

 

Could you help me please?

[Eagle7907]

I don’t think ED has a problem of extreme attrition. They are pretty unique and has the hearts of many fans, however with the news of many enhancements being put off for an indeterminable amount of time, that will turn people off a bit. The thing is if they were first honest about the timeframe of these things in the first place would’ve prevented people from getting disappointed. Anyways, like other times in the past, it’s usually just communications is the problem, not just the wait time in itself. I, too, am disappointed. I won’t stop playing though, just because of its unique play and continuous refinement. I’ve seen worse in the gaming industry. ED certainly isn’t on the bottom of that list. But they have made mistakes that could’ve been avoidable.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Kev2go]

This.

 

 

 

My Google must be broken. Every time I search for sims that have FA-18, F-16, F-14, F-5, Viggen, Warbirds, KA-50, MiGs ... in high fidelity with clickable cockpits in a finished or unfinished state I just get one result: DCSW.

 

 

Could you help me please?

 

Yes your google is broken.

 

unless you mean all the above listed aircraft together in 1 sim.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Kev2go

[Lenux]

Yes your google is broken.

 

unless you mean all the above listed aircraft together in 1 sim.

 

+ 100

[Tom Kazansky]

Yes your google is broken.

 

unless you mean all the above listed aircraft together in 1 sim.

 

 

That's exactly what I meant.

[Arctander]

You are straw manning @Flarpt post. He said ‘modern pc friendly sims’ of which there are many.

 

A sim does not have to contain the same planes/helicopters as DCSW, nor does it even need to have combat in it to compare and contrast how it runs on a modern PC.

[Tom Kazansky]

You are straw manning @Flarpt post. He said ‘modern pc friendly sims’ of which there are many.

 

A sim does not have to contain the same planes/helicopters as DCSW, nor does it even need to have combat in it to compare and contrast how it runs on a modern PC.

 

 

ok, then lets put it another way: to which sim(s) should I change if I want the planes that DCS offers at that fidelity and with the ability to fight A/A an A/G? (Not to mention Combined Arms abilities.)

[Shuenix]

@Flarpt

 

I have the exact same feeling as you and I only started Oct. last year. When 2.5.6 patch was launched it was enough. It was like "Why bother? it get's worse". I haven't played since. I realy would like to fly again, but a part of me have got enough of this half finished sim.

 

When I started last year, I had the choice of buying The Hornet or the F16. I realy would like the F16. But I thought that the Hornet must be close to finish, since they had the F16 comming, so I chose the Hornet. Boy, I realy got disappointed, it was far from finished. I didn't make it better, when the accelerated the development on the F16, on the behalf the Hornet. At that point I felt I was scamed to buy the Hornet, I realy felt cheated. Now the two aircrafts is pretty much equal in development and it was the F16 I wanted most :-(

 

All the small bugs is a pain in the ... I know it's Beta, whats the point if the bugs don't get fixed?

 

I bought the FW 190 A, it is pretty much finished (I think), but we can't put a bomb on it. Again, one of the small things.

 

I am not giving up on this sim yet. I have decided to give it a couple month more. If no improvement or sign of improvement, I think I will take some months on the sofa and just wait and see if another flight simulator will come my way this year, even a civilian one.

 

I realy like DCS, but this half finished stuff is too much.

 

I hope and think, the new closed Betateam, will end up in a much better product.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Shuenix

[Arctander]

@tom Kazansky - that’s the very definition of straw man. You know there is no other sim with the same modules etc as DCS - and you are using that to avoid the actual point. @Flarpt is saying he gets more FUN in other sims as he doesn’t have to deal with the amount of bugs, workarounds and poor optimisation as other sims DESPITE the fact that no other sim contains the planes and A2G/A2A as DCS.

[Tom Kazansky]

@tom Kazansky - that’s the very definition of straw man. You know there is no other sim with the same modules etc as DCS - and you are using that to avoid the actual point. @Flarpt is saying he gets more FUN in other sims as he doesn’t have to deal with the amount of bugs, workarounds and poor optimisation as other sims DESPITE the fact that no other sim contains the planes and A2G/A2A as DCS.

 

 

ok, then I got your point, I guess.

 

 

 

I myself use stable DCS and am not affected too much by those problems. I don't use VR (yet). Just 4k big screen. And I'm patient, so I find the years of (e.g.) FA-18C developement much more interesting and binding to it than annoying.

 

 

I understand though, if DCS ain't fun anymore in its present state, and there is enough comparable sims, it seems natural to get that fun somewhere else.

 

 

I hope that day is still far away for me, concerning DCS.

[DD_Fenrir]

The choice is simple - and it is a choice, ergo it is entirely under your control.

 

Don't like bugs or having your DCS install hampered to what you regard as a level of unplayability?

 

THEN DON'T USE OPENBETA AS YOUR PRIMARY INSTALL

 

THE PURPOSE OF THE OPENBETA IS DESIGNED TO ALLOW THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO USE IT TO ASSIST ED IN BUG SQUASHING BY PROVIDING THEM WITH A LARGER USER BASE WITH DIVERSE HARDWARE AND SYSTEM SETUPS MUCH MORE VARIED THAN THEY CAN ACHIEVE WITHIN THEIR OWN TEAM

 

IF OPENBETA IS YOUR SOLE INSTALLATION THEN YOU CHOSE IT TO BE AND WERE WARNED BEFOREHAND THAT YOU WOULD BE POTENTIALLY SUBJECT TO INSTABILITY

[Chiron]

100% Correct

[ThorBrasil]

That's why I always speak. openBeta is the updated "stable".

[ivo]

The choice is simple - and it is a choice, ergo it is entirely under your control.

 

Don't like bugs or having your DCS install hampered to what you regard as a level of unplayability?

 

THEN DON'T USE OPENBETA AS YOUR PRIMARY INSTALL

 

THE PURPOSE OF THE OPENBETA IS DESIGNED TO ALLOW THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO USE IT TO ASSIST ED IN BUG SQUASHING BY PROVIDING THEM WITH A LARGER USER BASE WITH DIVERSE HARDWARE AND SYSTEM SETUPS MUCH MORE VARIED THAN THEY CAN ACHIEVE WITHIN THEIR OWN TEAM

 

IF OPENBETA IS YOUR SOLE INSTALLATION THEN YOU CHOSE IT TO BE AND WERE WARNED BEFOREHAND THAT YOU WOULD BE POTENTIALLY SUBJECT TO INSTABILITY

 

YES BUT ALSO :

 

 

ED ONLY SELL MODULES IN STABLE VERSION

Edited March 2, 2020 by ivo