AV-8B COPY PROTECTION CHANGE

[Dee-Jay]

Hi gents!

 

I have voted 90 days. But 90 is far from being enough for some peoples ...

 

What about military guys deployed for six months or more, or on an unscheduled long period mission, leaving with his laptop and a small joystick in his bags but on a site/compound where he won't have a web access on his personal computer ... (This is one example among other)

 

... ?

 

Not talking bout 30 or 90 days ... I am talking about four to six months (at least because US army for instance can go up to 9+ month) ...

 

Not only military peoples are concerned. Web access on personal devices is not always granted in all places. It might be on dedicated station provided by contractors.

 

Regards.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Dee-Jay

[jojo]

Hi gents!

 

I have voted 90 days. But 90 is far from being enough for some peoples ...

 

What about military guys deployed for six months or more, or on an unscheduled long period mission, leaving with his laptop and a small joystick in his bags but on a site/compound where he won't have a web access on his personal computer ... (This is one example among other)

 

... ?

 

Not talking bout 30 or 90 days ... I am talking about four to six months (at least because US army for instance can go up to 9+ month) ...

 

Not only military peoples are concerned. Web access on personal devices is not always granted in all places. It might be on dedicated station provided by contractors.

 

Regards.

 

+1

 

In fact I purchased A-10C Beta during a deployment, I had to spend a full afternoon in some Starbuck Coffe to download. After that most of the time my laptop was off line...but still I could play.

[WytchCrypt]

This thread is quite eye-opening and I guess shows how naive I can be with today's gaming environments. I've only been flying DCSW for about a month now and thought that since I could open the program and fly locally without an internet connection, that I somehow could stay with this version indefinitely even if I never connected to the internet again. Apparently, I was wrong :-(

 

I've been flying since the Flanker DOS days when you bought a game, loaded it on your system and it was yours. Period. When LOMAC evolved to Flaming Cliffs and introduced Starforce I bailed. Why? Well, because of what eventually happened. Now, anyone that has used up their Starforce install licenses is SOL because the author (Ubisoft?) isn't issuing any new digital keys. That's not software...it's ransomware.

 

The thought that I could invest a significant amount of hours into DCSW creating missions and recording tracks which could all be made worthless if ED goes out of business or later requires me to upgrade to something else beyond my system capabilities is disturbing to say the least.

 

I was a software developer for 14 years (not gaming, but corporate finance packages) so I completely understand that the massive work in development should and must be compensated. However, when I "purchase" a game, I want to own the game, not rent access to it! I love what I've seen so far in DCSW and would welcome the option to purchase the program for $100 to own a standalone, local only version that I had complete control over. The fact that I don't really own DCSW, but am just renting it could be a deal breaker and drive me back to LOMAC. No, it's not as cool as DCSW, but at least I'll be able to play it on my current gaming system until they pry my joystick out of my cold dead hands :-)

Edited December 2, 2017 by WytchCrypt

[shagrat]

I have no problem with Multiplayer, as it requires a connection anyway. But for offline (as in single player) basically any "time period" is a bad idea!

What about people moving into a new home where the Internet provider ****s up and you are stuck with months without web access? What about people who want to take their Laptop on longer trips, work assignments where internet is not always available?

There are so many possibilities where you are stuck without a internet connection for more than 3 days.

 

I know there are advantages to this, as fraud keys and stolen keys seem to have caused some trouble a while ago.

 

I would highly recommend to reconsider the period. A 90 days period may be working for most, yet military personnel in theatres will still struggle with 6-9 month deployments, often with utterly bad or non existent Internet connection, if permitted at all.

Microsoft had a similar idea with the Xbox One that got them a LOT of negative publicity and they finally folded.

 

I can live with a forced check after massive hardware changes, I have no issue to bind modules to an account to prevent them to be run on multiple PCs at once, but a internet verification every three days? Really?

[KevinC]

I just registered yesterday so I could comment in the "Copy Protection Change" thread that has since been closed; as a new register I had to wait 24 hours. I'm doing it here instead. I do realize I'm an example of an unusual case, the world doesn't revolve around me, etc.

 

The deal is that I live and work 5+ months each year in the higher elevations of the Eastern Sierra in California. The residence I am at has no internet at all! The thread above I was referring to mentioned something about having a cell phone connection. Lol! Well, if we had that we would have internet.

 

So you might see how the voting as it is setup in this poll is kind of like asking how quick a death I would like. ;)

 

I really hope ED reconsiders this because I have spent the past year getting a new computer, then a new graphics card, then a proper joystick, then a bunch of DCS modules, then IR Tracking. In fairness, I have two other programs I use with this computer, but DCS was a big factor in me getting a new computer in the first place in the hope that I would be using it during the months I am in the high country. I'm totally fine with the system as it is with serial key activation.

 

As it was, I intended to purchase the Harrier this weekend and the Hornet when it comes out. However, this new situation has me really disheartened. I hate to say this, but if this is the new way for copy protection then I guess I'm done.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to say that once and it is all intend to say. Thank you.

[Jeepyb]

its like these game devs are completely oblivious to the living / working conditions that exists out there. We don't all live in Korea with crazy internet access everywhere nor do some of us have the luxury to come home every night ! DCS is used by a big pool of military member and this measure not taking them into account at all.

[VincentLaw]

I voted 7 days because I don't think this system would provide effective copy protection beyond that, however, I do not like my DRM to require online checks. I'd rather have the peace of mind of having DCS locked to 1 or 2 computers instead of having to worry if the internet works each morning. I don't play DCS every day so there is a good chance it will need to phone home most days I play DCS. If on any given day my internet is down or if ED is down, that could mean no DCS for me.

Edited December 2, 2017 by VincentLaw

[NineLine]

its like these game devs are completely oblivious to the living / working conditions that exists out there. We don't all live in Korea with crazy internet access everywhere nor do some of us have the luxury to come home every night ! DCS is used by a big pool of military member and this measure not taking them into account at all.

 

I would hope North Bay would have decent internet access, you don't seem that far out in the sticks. Regardless, ED is taking a hard look at it, I would expect a decent change.

[finch]

I voted for 30 days, but now my question is about steam... If I'm not wrong with only steam protection you can keep any game forever offline once installed (or there is also a time limit?), no need to connect again to renew your license... now DCS is also on steam and on some modules there isn't any starforce DRM... so how are those modules protected? Who use steam need also to be online time to time to renew the license or are bind with steam protection?

Edited December 2, 2017 by finch

[Grimes]

I voted for 30 days, but now my question is about steam... If I'm not wrong with only steam protection you can keep any game forever offline once installed, no need to connect again to renew your license... now DCS is also on steam and on some modules there isn't any starforce DRM... so how are those modules protected? Who use steam need also to be online time to time to renew the license or are bind with steam protection?

 

Depends on the game really. Some games its literally just installed on your PC and don't require steam or internet at all. A Kerbal Space Program install from steam can literally be copied to other computers without steam and work just fine. I'm fairly certain DCS is like that as far as the starforce modules go (still have to input keys). Planet Coaster on the other hand is a game that has extra DRM built on top, and last time I tried playing it with internet down didn't go so well. I can't answer the question specifically for how it works with DCS since the only modules I have on steam still use starforce.

 

I am also curious on how the steam only DRM works with modules.

[cm2]

30 days for me, and a steam like "offline login" emergency system for 1 player offline play would be nice too imo, just in case I want to play DCS past the 30 days "time limit" but the internet is offline for whatever reason at that particular time.

[Flagrum]

One week should be the absolute minimum, imo. This should then cover the majority of the "I am on a business trip"-cases.

 

But, as I proposed in the other thread already, I really think a dynamic grace period should be the way to go: you get a grace period of 30 or maybe 21 days, but only once. Once you used that, you grace period is reduced for the next time, maybe for the next few times. Or for a certain period of time. Like, you used up your 30 days, then your next grace period will be a now shorter period of 7 days. If you don't use those 7 days for the next 30 ... 60 ... dunno days, your grace period will be extended back to 30 days.

 

This should then also cover those cases of extended vacations and such.

 

Cases where one is overseas for months ... well, this DRM scheme just have limits where it is still be somewhat effective for ED and I guess, not every case can be sufficiently covered with it...

Edited December 2, 2017 by Flagrum

[jef32]

+1 for 90

 

A thing I don't understand: With Starforce, your soft is the less victim of piracy.

 

In other way, I just needed second keys when i changed my computer, 16 months ago and I can understand that people can have crashes but honestly, who need keys very often ? A computer change or a crash doesn't happen everyday and Starforce is very efficient against piracy. Why changing that ?

 

I presume that Starforce is a cost for you but paying modules and cannot using them, in a case of a big crash of connection or in a case of the move to an other home and the wait of a new connection would be lost money for us. I use DCS at 80% in single player mode. Why being punished by an anti-piracy system if I lost my connection whereas i bought my modules honestly ?

 

And what happens if someone lost his connection just before the date of the control ?

 

A thing you could do if you want to persist in this way: At each launch of DCS or once a day, asking "Do you want to verify your licences online ? Yes or No. And if "No" , a message "It remains XX days ( 90 I hope) for you to re-validate your licences"

Edited December 2, 2017 by jef32

[Dee-Jay]

I have no problem with Multiplayer, as it requires a connection anyway.

 

What about LAN? ...

[shagrat]

What about LAN? ...

Does still require a online check to ensure no "inventive guys" share their modules with a quick copy job.

This is how the current system works anyway.

 

I doubt many LAN events in larger locations have no internet connection today.

Yes, no DRM or copy protection would be nice, so would be a world of people who don't steal keys, do fraud on the internet etc.

What we need is a balance, between "not feasable", for example for people working in or for the military etc. and the need to prevent creative guys to circumvent the payment for this product, as the further development can't be done for free.

 

I like the idea of a grace period that was brought up earlier.

Say after 90 days you get a notification about a remaining grace period of 30 days, every time you start DCS.

 

That could cover a lot of issues already.

If we could combine this with a fallback challenge response hotline (after the grace period you need to verify a generated key and get the answer) or at least the option to request that response via email and type it in, that could help.

I can see situations where we don't have internet running but can access a friend's or work PC or smartphone to read emails.

 

This combination may even work for people on the road or longer assignments?

[sc_neo]

I still don't understand how this helps. Those that have bought modules get logged out after x days without internet connection and those that get themselves a pirated copy will not be bothered at all? If i have everything legal and dandy, calling ED support on a landline or via sattelite phone or what not to get a special unlock key makes only sense, if i own all that stuff legally, right? So why would i then have to do it at all?

 

I still don't understand how repeated verification vs one time activation helps overcome piracy issues. Either you buy it via steam or ED store, than you have payed for it and your good. Or you download it somewhere illegally which means the internet activation requiremen has been removed althogeher i would presume.

 

Thus, why would it be harder for pirate groups to remove protection that checks in muliple times vs one time only? Once the protection mechanism is broken it is removed i would think.

 

We end up in a situation where he paying customer ends up with all the inconviniece and burden of proof and the freeriders laugh!

[Azrayen]

What about LAN? ...

Connexion already needed at the start.

 

= = = = = =

 

Voted 30 days. This will cover standard life situations:

- extended time connection issues (network/provider big failure, ED's servers failure, customer moving out...)

- most of remote-work situations (e.g. pilots/mechanics doing QRA duties for 1-2 weeks)

 

Would like to see ED explore a way to have longer period for specific situations:

- military guys/gals on a remote location (potentially with little/no forewarning to deploy)

- civilian/military sailors away from home (and good connection) for extended periods (2-3 monthes for the one I know, but may be twice more easily)

 

Thx,

Az'

[shagrat]

I still don't understand how this helps. Those that have bought modules get logged out after x days without internet connection and those that get themselves a pirated copy will not be bothered at all? If i have everything legal and dandy, calling ED support on a landline or via sattelite phone or what not to get a special unlock key makes only sense, if i own all that stuff legally, right? So why would i then have to do it at all?

 

I still don't understand how repeated verification vs one time activation helps overcome piracy issues. Either you buy it via steam or ED store, than you have payed for it and your good. Or you download it somewhere illegally which means the internet activation requiremen has been removed althogeher i would presume.

 

Thus, why would it be harder for pirate groups to remove protection that checks in muliple times vs one time only? Once the protection mechanism is broken it is removed i would think.

 

We end up in a situation where he paying customer ends up with all the inconviniece and burden of proof and the freeriders laugh!

We are a long time beyond a "pirated copy" as games like DCS are updated regularly and bound to a user account/serial Number combination.

The goal is to prevent criminals from stealing your keys or the whole account so you can enjoy the game you bought.

Without any kind of verification after the initial install you can clone the PC to a virtual machine, clone the hard drive even copy the whole install to a USB drive/Stick and play it offline on how many PCs you want.

Problem is, that is where people no longer but, the modules but just copy them.

If somebody goes through the hassle of reengineering the module and remove the protection, you can't prevent it.

 

But if you check who is the guy that Plays the game and if he actually bought the module he is playing, that works pretty well.

 

I agree though that we need a balance that focusses on user convenience. A system to virtually "punish" the legal purchaser for not having stable internet or having a non 9-to-5-job isn't a good option, either.

 

From what I read, the binding to one specific PC hardware and requiring a revalidation after changes seems widely accepted. Combined with an online check for multiplayer it was a pretty good system.

 

The only issues people had where the limitations in Activations and Deactivations.

If we bind the installation to one(!) specific hardware and require a reauthorization and activation after a hardware change, that can be done forever?

[Dee-Jay]

Would like to see ED explore a way to have longer period for specific situations:

- military guys/gals on a remote location (potentially with little/no forewarning to deploy)

- civilian/military sailors away from home (and good connection) for extended periods (2-3 monthes for the one I know, but may be twice more easily)

 

And you will have to think about it before leaving home ... because if before leaving home you haven't connected your DCS since few weeks ... once our are out, your are *funky*.

 

I doubt many LAN events in larger locations have no internet connection today.

 

I am again talking about military guy (just an example) , it might be students or any one else ... living in dormitory a big part of the year and playing DCS in LAN without ANY web access. This is my case when I was student pilot in Salon de Provence in 2001-2004 where we were playing LOCK ON and were we was doing one of the very first multiplayer LOMAC footage ever with my friend Tigrou.

 

(Nostalgia :) )

 

 

 

 

And I know it is still the case in theatre operation ...

 

I confirm that some people still playing LAN without any Internet connexion (ant this is precisely why they do LAN and not Internet MP sessions).

 

 

#s3gt_translate_tooltip_mini { display: none !important; }

Edited December 2, 2017 by Dee-Jay

[six.dof]

I live in China, log in works only over VPN, 2018 the gouverment put more resources on blocking and tracing of VPN, btw using VPN is illegal here.

I don’t mind about the checking as long ED find a solution that don’t require illegal activity’s from my side to prove I am the legal owner.

Even posting here works only with VPN

[sc_neo]

@shagrat There you go, thats the first technical explanation (account theft) i have heard in this debate that has something going for repeated verification, which is mainly due to moving from a key-based system (which worked without issues for me by the way) to an account based system. I have not thought of account theft as an issue yet.

 

I'd then propose an email based two-factor verification when either installing DCS or running a ''copied over'' DCS version for the first time. Is there a good reason to assume a DCS activation is transfered over to a new PC/Windows installation with simply copying over the DCS folder? That should be easy to remedy i reckon.

 

If i understand it correctly, with the current starforece based key-system, i can essentially install and activate DCS on 10 different PCs and an additional 12 installations per year thereafter. Hence 22 installations after one year...and growing with each passing month. Is there a limit on how many activations i can have simultaneously at the moment?

 

What could be implemented in addition is an additional password based system (with a seperate password than your normal DCS login details) inside your personal DCS store profile, where you can lock or unlock the ability to activate new installations. Hence even if someone manages to steal your account AND your email account that is used for the two-factor verification process, he'd still needed a third password. This third password would not be changeable via the same email address and require a second email address or only be changle after direct contact with ED cusomer support.

 

I personally have installed DCS on only one compuer and have not needed to activate a seond time as of yet. Doing this two factor thing when logging in with my account on a new computer would not really bother me. Running around and jumping through hoops to online re-verify would!

 

I'd rather accept a limitation of how many activations on different pcs/hardware configs i can have at the same time before deactivating one than having to worry about internet availability.

Edited December 2, 2017 by sc_neo

[diditopgun]

Hi gents!

 

I have voted 90 days. But 90 is far from being enough for some peoples ...

 

What about military guys deployed for six months or more, or on an unscheduled long period mission, leaving with his laptop and a small joystick in his bags but on a site/compound where he won't have a web access on his personal computer ... (This is one example among other)

 

... ?

 

Not talking bout 30 or 90 days ... I am talking about four to six months (at least because US army for instance can go up to 9+ month) ...

 

Not only military peoples are concerned. Web access on personal devices is not always granted in all places. It might be on dedicated station provided by contractors.

 

Regards.

 

+1 !!!

[Art-J]

I literally only fired up 1.5.8 OB a few times during these last 3 days (waiting for the stable release) and, even though I do NOT own the AV-8 module, I already got the infamous "failed authorisation" plus "multiplayer not available" errors once. I thought, as of now, only the Harrier was converted to new system?

 

If this is how this new DRM is going to work, then I can't say I'm extatic about it.

[shagrat]

@shagrat There you go, thats the first technical explanation (account theft) i have heard in this debate that has something going for repeated verification, which is mainly due to moving from a key-based system (which worked without issues for me by the way) to an account based system. I have not thought of account theft as an issue yet.

 

I'd then propose an email based two-factor verification when either installing DCS or running a ''copied over'' DCS version for the first time. Is there a good reason to assume a DCS activation is transfered over to a new PC/Windows installation with simply copying over the DCS folder? That should be easy to remedy i reckon.

 

If i understand it correctly, with the current starforece based key-system, i can essentially install and activate DCS on 10 different PCs and an additional 12 installations per year thereafter. Hence 22 installations after one year...and growing with each passing month. Is there a limit on how many activations i can have simultaneously at the moment?

 

What could be implemented in addition is an additional password based system (with a seperate password than your normal DCS login details) inside your personal DCS store profile, where you can lock or unlock the ability to activate new installations. Hence even if someone manages to steal your account AND your email account that is used for the two-factor verification process, he'd still needed a third password. This third password would not be changeable via the same email address and require a second email address or only be changle after direct contact with ED cusomer support.

 

I personally have installed DCS on only one compuer and have not needed to activate a seond time as of yet. Doing this two factor thing when logging in with my account on a new computer would not really bother me. Running around and jumping through hoops to online re-verify would!

 

I'd rather accept a limitation of how many activations on different pcs/hardware configs i can have at the same time before deactivating one than having to worry about internet availability.

As far as I understand StarForce Pro-Active you can activate in multiple PCs, but you need to login with the Account the keys are bound to. So ED Servers a User is only logged in on One machine at a time.

 

If any major hardware change occurs on an activated system you can deactivate (10 Deactivations available) it before you change it, or you need another activation.

That is the current system.

 

Please keep in mind I am no expert on copy protection in general or DCS DRM specific.

All knowledge is through, the manuals, this forum and web research around StarForce

[Sleipner]

I understand very much ED has to protect its job.

I spent more than five hundred euros on modules and maps.

But If I have to find an internet connection to play single player, i'll be obliged to stop.

13 modules and 2 maps for nothing...

 

I hope it's a joke...