Huey Engine Failure?

[pimp]

Hi All,

 

Can someone take a look at my track and tell me what's going wrong? For some reason my engine keeps catching fire. Am I overstressing the engine? Not sure if it matters to whoever views it, but I use VR.

 

Thanks in advance!!!

HueyEngineFailure.trk

[Ramsay]

For some reason my engine keeps catching fire. Am I overstressing the engine?

Yes, when you started to follow the treeline and climb, EGT reached 700°C, a minute or two later the engine failed.

 

BST are working on correcting the excessive EGT and premature engine failure, until a patch is released, it is important to monitor your EGT, as the current damage model is punishing.

 

EGT limits are:

 

Continuous 610°C

30 minutes max 610-625°C

 

Engine Start:

625°C to 675°C for 10 seconds

675°C to 760°C for 5 seconds

760°C Max.

 

At 2000 ft / 6°C, IRL you would have had more power available and lower EGT's than you did.

 

Note:

Engine De-ice = ON increases EGT excessively, making a bad situation worse.

 

In your track, the Huey spawns in below 5°C (4000 ft / 2°C), so spawns with De-ice=ON.

 

You could have reduced your EGT and increased available Torque, by turning De-ice=OFF. EGT would still have been higher than IRL but you might have avoided engine failure.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Ramsay
Add tacview screenshot

[pimp]

Wow, thank you for that information. I never even noticed the EGT. The harrier has made me learn the limitations of an aircraft. Now I need to go back a study the Huey.

 

Thanks again!

[Gunnars Driver]

Yes, when you started to follow the treeline and climb, EGT reached 700°C, a minute or two later the engine failed.

 

BST are working on correcting the excessive EGT and premature engine failure, until a patch is released, it is important to monitor your EGT, as the current damage model is punishing.

 

EGT limits are:

 

Continuous 610°C

30 minutes max 610-625°C

 

Yes, and those limits are not currently marked correct on the EGT-meter.

We hope they’ll fix it as well, so people just can look at the EGT-meter and stay below the appropriate red line.

Stressing it out, just to be sure BST notice it.

[JLX]

...BST are working on correcting the excessive EGT and premature engine failure, until a patch is released, it is important to monitor your EGT, as the current damage model is punishing...

 

Glad I found this too. Haven't flown the Huey in a while but find it overly sensitive at the moment!

 

EGT redlines almost out of the gate and is so sensitive that engine fires/failure make the module not much fun to fly at the moment.

 

Do hope they fix this ASAP as it's one of my favourites.

 

I will check to make sure De-icing is off though in the meantime. Good tip.

[IJammer]

Yup, I am getting the same problem... flying the Huey as I have since I first started to use it... now I find I only get about 10 minutes of flying time before the engine goes poop. At first I thought it was a USB controller problem. D'oh, how can they break things that have been working fine up until now?

 

I hope Belsimtek has been made aware of the problem... else we could wait for ever for a fix.

 

The Huey seems to have fallen out of favour of late with a lot of original users... so many new treets in the sweet shop eh!

[Weta43]

I hope Belsimtek has been made aware of the problem... else we could wait for ever for a fix.

See all of this thread:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196588&page=33

[IJammer]

Thanks ^

[HiJack]

D'oh, how can they break things that have been working fine up until now?

Happens all the time to every programmer on this earth.

[BlacleyCole]

About a month or more ago they updated the egr system and since you have to be very careful with the collective any substantial use will raise the egr temp and after short duration it will progressively damage the engine so now until you get use to it you. Have to watch your overall weight and the egr gauge keeping the needle below 625 degrees iirc

[Gunnars Driver]

About a month or more ago they updated the egr system and since you have to be very careful with the collective any substantial use will raise the egr temp and after short duration it will progressively damage the engine so now until you get use to it you. Have to watch your overall weight and the egr gauge keeping the needle below 625 degrees iirc

 

 

EGT.

 

 

Exhaust Gas Temperature.

 

 

EGR: Exhaust Gas Recirculation, emission control systems in automobiles. :)

[Wats]

Thank you for your message Ramsay. I looked for the solution since march ! :doh:

[jaznit]

Hi all,

 

Just getting used to the UH1H and I always seem to end up with an engine fire also - Is it the same reason? I've attached the track.

 

Any feedback would be great

UH-1H engine failed 80percent.trk

[Ramsay]

I always seem to end up with an engine fire also - Is it the same reason?

Yes,

• initial pickup into flight - EGT hits 690°C and momentarily rises to 740°C @ 18 sec
  
• initial cruise is at or below the 625°C yellow 30 min max.
   
  This is not ideal but the initial EGT exceedances are brief (675-760°C 5 sec max, for starting and acceleration) and about the best that can be done in DCS ATM with a loaded/armed Huey and the current EGT/Torque simulation.
   
  Unfortunately -
   
  
• about 2/3 of the way through the 11 minute flight, EGT's start to regularly rise above the yellow 625°C band and EGT damage is cumulative.
  
• the engine eventually fails @ 690°C after rising above 700°C several times prior.
  

 

The red EGT 'tic marks' are 'hard' limits and DCS will punish you for flying above the 'yellow' 625°C 30 minute max EGT.

 

Once BST correct EGT and Torque, we should be flying to max torque 50 psi (gearbox limitation) upto approx 4000 ft and to 615°C EGT (yellow 625°C 30 min max) above that (engine limitation).

 

For now - EGT is king at all altitudes.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Ramsay

[jaznit]

Ok I think I see it now, is this the gauge in the picture?

 

When I was flying I didn't feel like I was pushing the heli hard (new to this module so correct me if you see different). In simple terms what can I be doing to bring the temp down? less throttle, higher altitude, etc

Edited August 14, 2018 by jaznit

[Ramsay]

Ok I think I see it now, is this the gauge in the picture?

Yes

 

When I was flying I didn't feel like I was pushing the heli hard (new to this module so correct me if you see different).

 

The Huey needs to be treated with care until BST implement their improved EGT/Torque engine model.

 

Current performance is comparable to operating a lower powered UH-1D or a UH-1H at sea level + 6000 ft altitudes.

 

In simple terms what can I be doing to bring the temp down? less throttle, higher altitude, etc

Reduce engine load - as the mission Huey already has a reduced loadout 54% fuel, 2xM60 = 7732 lb (81%), this means managing your collective and/or reducing your airspeed to keep EGT below 615°C while cruising and below 625°C if in combat.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Ramsay
typo

[jaznit]

Yes

 

 

 

The Huey needs to be treated with care until BST implement their improved EGT/Torque engine model.

 

Current performance is comparable to operating a lower powered UH-1D or a UH-1H at sea level + 6000 ft altitudes.

 

 

Reduce engine load - as the mission Huey already has a reduced loadout 54% fuel, 2xM60 = 7732 lb (81%), this means managing your collective and/or reducing your airspeed to keep EGT below 615°C while cruising and below 625°C if in combat.

 

Thank you, very helpful.

[shagrat]

Yes

 

 

 

The Huey needs to be treated with care until BST implement their improved EGT/Torque engine model.

 

Current performance is comparable to operating a lower powered UH-1D or a UH-1H at sea level + 6000 ft altitudes.

 

 

Reduce engine load - as the mission Huey already has a reduced loadout 54% fuel, 2xM60 = 7732 lb (81%), this means managing your collective and/or reducing your airspeed to keep EGT below 615°C while cruising and below 625°C if in combat.

 

Actually the Huey is pretty sturdy, even with the current engine damage model. The 30 minutes @the yellow mark is no problem unless you don't keep it constantly over long times and give it some phases to cool down afterwards. The damage is not cumulative in a way, that your engine will fail exactly after 30min, but after exceeding certain limits 690°C it takes a few seconds to start damaging the engine... That is you will definitely notice a degredation in performance, that is when you need to slow down and get back to a FARP etc. to repair or you will blow your engine.

 

Abusing the engine by exceeding the 760°C limit for longer than a couple seconds can blow the engine instantly, though.

 

What I did most of the time is to use "rolling" take-off to keep EGT below 620°C or quick max performance Take-offs to get enough height quickly to accelerate to translational lift and reduce to 590-600°C EGT @ cruise.

Another best practice is to plan with a cruise speed of 80-90kts where possible and plan the necessary fuel and loadout for the mission instead of the usual 100% fuel and max loadout.

[shagrat]

D'oh, how can they break things that have been working fine up until now?

They didn't break anything "working fine". There simply was no Engine damage model in the Huey beyond bullet hits before. So unlike in real life, some DCS pilots flew beyond EGT 760°C for 5 hours plus, at 120-130kts with full loadout and fuel all the time.

Belsimtek introduced the engine damage modeling on explicit request of a lot of community members, that were not happy with the "indestructable" engine. :music_whistling:

 

I hope Belsimtek has been made aware of the problem... else we could wait for ever for a fix.

Belsimtek works on it: (...)"The fix implementation taking more time that we would want, but Huey engine needs some considerable changes for this new solution to be in place. We jumped on our engine programmers with this while they were in the middle of F/A-18C project, so now they are split between two tasks and not going really fast. We hope, that when F-18C will go early access, patch for Huey engine will also be close to completion."(...) :thumbup:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3443816&postcount=330

Edited August 15, 2018 by shagrat

[BlacleyCole]

It’s been a while since this problem rose it’s ugly head. The f-18 get weekly updates, about every other mod has had updates. Be nice they would take the time to fix this.

[cordite]

Hear, hear.

[Robert31178]

Shag is right, a running take off, as it is called, is the only way to get a loaded up Huey off of the ground. I've weighed in a bunch on this, and even though I'm not a real helicopter pilot I feel qualified in speaking here by virtue of having flown the Huey damn near exclusively for close to 3 years.

 

Twice.

 

That's the number of times I've EGT'd. One of those was more or less on purpose. My flying habits didn't really change on the Caucasus map post EGT failure implementation, I always flew 50% fuel, mini's on the doors, and flew within published torque limits. It's a bit more challenging on the desert maps, but you can use it!!!!

 

Yesterday I flew an op on the PG map with my new unit (yes Blackley, it's me, Gunfighter). Good morning gentlemen, the temperature was 110 degrees.....I flew with 50% fuel and mini's in the doors, per usual. I was able to make 75kia consistently, moved crates via CTLD by hovering over them at our required height of 12-29ft for 10 seconds, went and picked up two pilots, and I was able to not smoke an engine, nor did I feel the need to run a repair.

 

Every time I turn around someone is complaining about EGT limitations. Listen, it's flyable, and to be frank I think it's better now than it was because the bird has limitations that must be observed, where before there were NO consequences for bombing out carrying a red line for torque at 125kts. I've learned, after experiencing my only actual surprise failure, that if you just fly like you did previously, and instead of first looking at your torque gauge look first at your EGT, then you'll be fine. You just have to trade some fuel for cargo/weaps. While I agree the EGT failures are over modelled, I think this is better than before.

 

~Rob

Edited August 15, 2018 by Robert31178

[shagrat]

Just to mention, if you feel the need for more power, there is an Option in the Mission Editor to adjust the engine tear&wear (basically how old the engine is). You could get a brand new one, with a tad bit better performance, if you wanted to model a Vietnam mission with a brand new Huey fresh from the production line.

 

The standard is more of a 50 odd year old helicopter as we have today in reality.

 

As Belsimtek has acknowledged already there is a slight deviation in the EGT modeling they need to adjust, but it is nowhere as dramatic or "unrealistic" as some people try to make it.

 

The Huey is a very old machine. There is a reason why todays UH-1 variants like the Venom have two(!) turbine engines and four(!) rotorblades.

 

Even when they put rocket pods, miniguns and ammo galore on a Huey in Vietnam they needed to trade a lot of fuel for it.

 

The next issue is "Hot and high won't let you fly." Nevada is not exactly 100 ft MSL and that together with temperatures above 25°C makes it problematic for a loaded two bladed helicopter from the 70ies to hover.

 

I am pretty sure after BST have fixed and adjusted EGT and torque, people will complain about torque warnings and ripped of rotors.

The root cause does not go away, as performance at high altitude and high temperature is a real life issue for such a helicopter.

 

Currently you simply need to closer monitor the EGT than torque, but you need to learn monitoring the engine, keep the limitations in mind and adjust the way you fly, as well as learn to thoughtfully plan your loadout.

You can bend the limitations a little with the tricks we all read about in those books.

Running take off, circling in ground effect to translational lift, or max performance lift of to clear an obstacle, then plunge nose down into an acceleration dive. That is what the real life pilots did. They adjusted their flying and got creative to circumvent the limitations of the hardware. ;)

[BlacleyCole]

Where is this option to select the engine wear and tear? Condition?

[shagrat]

Where is this option to select the engine wear and tear? Condition?

In the ME click on the Huey Group, last Tab there are two sliders. First is for the AI gunner accuracy (default 90%)

Second is for engine "age" / performance.

 

EDIT this is set for each individual aircraft, like the loadout and skin. It cannot be changed in the mission while playing.

 

Personally I prefer to leave it as it is, as we fly old iconic helicopters in the late 90ies and beyond, most of the time...

Edited August 16, 2018 by shagrat