TrackIR or VR? why?

[Mule]

Are you saying you use hand controllers for cockpit interaction and aircraft controls, or do you also use a HOTAS? If so, isn't it cumbersome to switch from the HOTAS to the controllers?

 

Hi Boris, I use a HOTAS yes. I don't use the touch for controls it's just buttons and switches. Interaction with most cockpit controls is with the left controller. It sits next to the throttle (Warthog) The hand is hidden outside of the VR pit if that makes sense and no it's not cumbersome. I just pick it up when I need to. I still use the laser pointer system as the actual touch works but hasn't been refined.

 

A full startup is so easy this way.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Cheb44]

Hi Boris, I use a HOTAS yes. I don't use the touch for controls it's just buttons and switches. Interaction with most cockpit controls is with the left controller. It sits next to the throttle (Warthog) The hand is hidden outside of the VR pit if that makes sense and no it's not cumbersome. I just pick it up when I need to. I still use the laser pointer system as the actual touch works but hasn't been refined.

 

A full startup is so easy this way.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Same thing I do, and I concur it works just fine. I was using both the left controller and the mouse for some things, but for whatever reason the last patch made it where you can't use both the touch and the mouse, so it is just the touch now.

 

To add to this, I don't have any issue with picking up the touch controller. Where I put it is as if it were sitting on my knee (actually sits between my throttle and stick) so doesn't block anything and that disembodied hand is actually quite easy to grab. Only time I sometimes find it difficult is initially finding it before it is activated at the start, and sometimes the upside down right click function is a bit unnatural feeling.

[speighty58]

If you have access to VR, you should try it.

 

The strength of VR isn't the graphics, its the true sense of being in side the cockpit.

 

Give it a try....

[Low Blow]

pretty much sum's it up.

 

+1

 

I had to fire up my monitor and track IR to test streamlabs OBS as streaming in VR is still a no go (affects in-game performance too much to be fun - you can check my specs below). Literally could not wait to go back to my rift.

 

Despite the loss of resolution, VR just brings too much to the table for the type of flying I do these days. Your brain will learn where to click in the cockpit for your start ups so that you don't need to read what the labels say.

 

If you are heavily into mk I eyeball CAS then VR might hinder you a bit too much though. If you are using a targeting pod then no worries, go for VR and you will be loving life.

[Harlikwin]

Are you saying you use hand controllers for cockpit interaction and aircraft controls, or do you also use a HOTAS? If so, isn't it cumbersome to switch from the HOTAS to the controllers?

 

It is cumbersome IMO. I use a mouse for cockpit interaction, its much "faster" for me. I could see the touch controller for startups tho.

 

There's a bunch of better ways to interact with the pit on the way in the near future. Member Miles here has a neat finger mounted pointer system that looks good, as does the capto-glove. In the meantime, a mouse or trackball or controller works fine.

[Harlikwin]

+1

 

I had to fire up my monitor and track IR to test streamlabs OBS as streaming in VR is still a no go (affects in-game performance too much to be fun - you can check my specs below). Literally could not wait to go back to my rift.

 

Despite the loss of resolution, VR just brings too much to the table for the type of flying I do these days. Your brain will learn where to click in the cockpit for your start ups so that you don't need to read what the labels say.

 

If you are heavily into mk I eyeball CAS then VR might hinder you a bit too much though. If you are using a targeting pod then no worries, go for VR and you will be loving life.

 

Yeah, flying the harrier, I've got a 90% understanding of which switch needs to get flipped when, and it works very well, as well as being very immersive.

[Svsmokey]

Was thinking today the real beneficiaries of captoglove might be the pit-builders . Imagine using it not as a controller , but as an avatar in VR . Touching x switch position in VR synched to the physical switch in the simpit .

[CBoB]

Was thinking today the real beneficiaries of captoglove might be the pit-builders . Imagine using it not as a controller , but as an avatar in VR . Touching x switch position in VR synched to the physical switch in the simpit .

 

THAT is when I'll buy VR

[Svsmokey]

THAT is when I'll buy VR

 

I think that might be possible today . I used the touch controllers ability to sense my extended index fingers to locate my physical throttle and joystick in sync with the in-cockpit VR version .

[Mule]

Was thinking today the real beneficiaries of captoglove might be the pit-builders . Imagine using it not as a controller , but as an avatar in VR . Touching x switch position in VR synched to the physical switch in the simpit .

 

I like the idea of an avatar to change switches etc but to have my hand not actually touching a controller such as the HOTAS would take me out of the virtual realty . That physical touch and the weight of the stick is important. It would also get tiring after a short period of time. That's why most controllers have those rest surfaces. The ergonomic shape and the feel really helps with fine controlling.

 

Imagine trying to do AAR without the feel of those micro movements you need to master that sort of thing?

[Svsmokey]

I like the idea of an avatar to change switches etc but to have my hand not actually touching a controller such as the HOTAS would take me out of the virtual realty . That physical touch and the weight of the stick is important. It would also get tiring after a short period of time. That's why most controllers have those rest surfaces. The ergonomic shape and the feel really helps with fine controlling.

 

Imagine trying to do AAR without the feel of those micro movements you need to master that sort of thing?

 

I agree with everything you are saying here , but am unsure of the context .

 

On the one hand , i was speaking of the captoglove's potential not as a controller , but merely as a hand and finger tracker to make it easy to find physical switches , etc in a scale simpit while in VR .

 

On the other hand , i noted that i was able to position my physical stick and throttle to conform to their positions in the VR cockpit , by using the touch controller only as a one-time 3d measuring tool . Now when i take my hand off the throttle , for example to use the trackball , i merely look at the throttle in the cockpit and imagine putting my hand on it , thus making it easier to find . It also increases the immersion having the physical and virtual hotas synched in 3d space .

 

I apologise for being unclear , and fear i may be less so now :)

[Mule]

I agree with everything you are saying here , but am unsure of the context .

 

On the one hand , i was speaking of the captoglove's potential not as a controller , but merely as a hand and finger tracker to make it easy to find physical switches , etc in a scale simpit while in VR .

 

On the other hand , i noted that i was able to position my physical stick and throttle to conform to their positions in the VR cockpit , by using the touch controller only as a one-time 3d measuring tool . Now when i take my hand off the throttle , for example to use the trackball , i merely look at the throttle in the cockpit and imagine putting my hand on it , thus making it easier to find . It also increases the immersion having the physical and virtual hotas synched in 3d space .

 

I apologise for being unclear , and fear i may be less so now :)

 

Ah, I thought you meant using the gloves to interact with the controllers in the VR pit. My mistake.

[Akula]

Once VR improves to the same levels as modern LED monitors and the detail is pristine, only then will I consider investing in one. From what I've heard the graphics are good but not great so there's still plenty of room for improvement which no doubt will happen. For a flight sim like DCS, this technology is still in its infancy.

[hansangb]

Once VR improves to the same levels as modern LED monitors and the detail is pristine, only then will I consider investing in one. From what I've heard the graphics are good but not great so there's still plenty of room for improvement which no doubt will happen. For a flight sim like DCS, this technology is still in its infancy.

 

 

There's your #1 problem. You're gong by what you *HEARD* VR is something you have to experience and decide. It's the same problem as "how do you describe the color red to someone who was born blind?"

 

The irony of course, is that we interact in 3D EVERY MINUTE of our lives except when we fly DCS.

 

And the other part where you're wrong is that VR for DCS is in infancy. I flew DCS in DK1, DK2, Vive, Odyssey, Rift, and now (about to) Pimiax5K+. I only kept the Rift, and we'll see about P5K+. It's far from infancy.

 

But again, talking about VR, writing about VR is a moot point. It's not something that you can explain over a written medium.

[dburne]

Once VR improves to the same levels as modern LED monitors and the detail is pristine, only then will I consider investing in one. From what I've heard the graphics are good but not great so there's still plenty of room for improvement which no doubt will happen. For a flight sim like DCS, this technology is still in its infancy.

 

Agree on the resolution however for many ( most I believe ) the immersion is so incredible it outweighs that shortcoming. But yeah if one is all about high resolution graphics and everything else is secondary, then VR likely would be a disappointment.

I would not game without VR.

[razorseal]

I don't have a VR (told the wife I need one for my bday in few months, so I better get it lmao) but I have a high end rig (i7 8700k with 1080ti which was sli until I couldn't remedy overheating problems) and I think it'll be enough for acceptable performance on a VR headset.

 

My biggest problem with Track IR is that it's hard to dogfight with it.

 

I'm in a Obutto racing cockpit with a 49 inch curved monitor so it's a pretty nice setup, however when I'm dogfigthing I can't really track anyone I'm figthing. It's hard to look directly up which is the most important spot. or look down into your cockpit...

 

It really kills the immersion. I'm hoping the VR will make it better

 

I also heard formation flying and a2a refuel is much easier.

[SharpeXB]

however when I'm dogfigthing I can't really track anyone I'm figthing. It's hard to look directly up which is the most important spot. or look down into your cockpit...

You just need to adjust setting with TrackIR. It’s actually harder to look around in VR because your movement needs to be 1:1, so checking six means actually turning your whole body and even more so because your vision is narrowed by the scuba mask effect of the headset. If this is your chief concern sticking with TrackIR might be better. So many VR players seem to consider TrackIR a “cheat” because it’s so much easier to look around.

Edited February 2, 2019 by SharpeXB

[hansangb]

You just need to adjust setting with TrackIR. It’s actually harder to look around in VR because your movement needs to be 1:1, so checking six means actually turning your whole body and even more so because your vision is narrowed by the scuba mask effect of the headset. If this is your chief concern sticking with TrackIR might be better. So many VR players seem to consider TrackIR a “cheat” because it’s so much easier to look around.

 

 

I took it to mean what every TrackIR user faces. Your brain knows that you're not really tracking in 3D. So you have no situational awareness. With VR, while you have to check six like the real pilots do (with narrower FOV but w/o G force) you just KNOW where you are in space. Again, hard to explain, but immediately understood once you experience it.

[SharpeXB]

I took it to mean what every TrackIR user faces.

I don’t think every TrackIR user has trouble orienting themselves. The gaming world is full of 3D games that aren’t in VR. So the experience isn’t abnormal.

[grimm862]

I don't have a VR (told the wife I need one for my bday in few months, so I better get it lmao) but I have a high end rig (i7 8700k with 1080ti which was sli until I couldn't remedy overheating problems) and I think it'll be enough for acceptable performance on a VR headset.

 

My biggest problem with Track IR is that it's hard to dogfight with it.

 

I'm in a Obutto racing cockpit with a 49 inch curved monitor so it's a pretty nice setup, however when I'm dogfigthing I can't really track anyone I'm figthing. It's hard to look directly up which is the most important spot. or look down into your cockpit...

 

It really kills the immersion. I'm hoping the VR will make it better

 

I also heard formation flying and a2a refuel is much easier.

If you are having those issues you should look into refining your curves, shouldn't be difficult to move the camera around at all. Use the edges of your screen as a stop movement guide, if you can't see fully vertical when looking at the top of the screen your curves are too small.

[Mars Exulte]

There's your #1 problem. You're gong by what you *HEARD* VR is something you have to experience and decide. It's the same problem as "how do you describe the color red to someone who was born blind?"

 

The irony of course, is that we interact in 3D EVERY MINUTE of our lives except when we fly DCS.

 

And the other part where you're wrong is that VR for DCS is in infancy. I flew DCS in DK1, DK2, Vive, Odyssey, Rift, and now (about to) Pimiax5K+. I only kept the Rift, and we'll see about P5K+. It's far from infancy.

 

But again, talking about VR, writing about VR is a moot point. It's not something that you can explain over a written medium.

 

 

 

I've used VR and have "experienced" the "real thing". VR at present is a proof of concept, nothing more nothing less. If "1st gen" of a brand new technology isn't "infancy" to you... Well, I don't know what is. The PiMax stuff is at best 2nd gen which means "early but still not very advanced". I mean seriously? First gen jets like the Me-262 with their infamous exploding engines and horridly slow turbine lag weren't "jets in their infancy" to you?

 

Current VR builds are crude and clumsy. Functional? Yes, they are. I get it, there's fanbois and haters for everything, but as someone who is very "pro VR" myself I can only see these kind of comments as unreasonable fanboiing because there is no way on EARTH this tech can be regarded as anything but very early and very crude. In 5-8 years it will be in every house and will have matured tremendously, but at this point, yeah, it's pretty damn bare bones and has a whole raft of drawbacks to using it.

[Svsmokey]

Mirroring a post I made elswhere...

 

This post isn't meant to change anyone's mind . I expect some are pretty much unchangable anyway . But having lately gone VR , i do see both sides of this arguement .

 

On the one hand , it is early days for VR . The displays as seen are more like SVGA than even 1080p . More than that , it will be years before we see a serious flight sim developed with VR implementation at its core . Right now , we need incredibly expensive hardware to achieve even mediocre graphical results .

 

But , given all that , there must be a reason why something like 92% of people who have flown VR can't go back .

It is more than being fully visually immersed in a virtual world . It is more even than sitting in a 3d virtual cockpit , although that alone is awesome . It is more than improved SA and more than an increased appreciation of the subtleties of terrain .

 

There is something very fundamental in the way VR fools your brain . People in VR react to , and do things that reflect not someone sitting beside a computer , but something someone might do in the world they are experiencing . The other day i had my headset on , and realised my glasses were in my lap . I found myself reaching OVER the cockpit sill and back down to lay them on the Tv stand . Anyone using VR has a similar story .

 

The thing is - why do we flightsim ? To experience flight in whatever form ? NOTHING can offer that experience in one's home like VR , short of a 720° projection system . Between the immersion , being IN the cockpit and the afore-mentioned tricking of the brain in a very fundamental way , I FEEL I'm flying . I FEEL , physically , every roll , and I positively tingle clearing - barely - a knob or tree while dropping into a valley in a dive .

 

I've been simming for many decades , from blowing-up Zeppelins in Red Baron , through many sims in the interim , to 1080p in DCS . But sitting in front of a monitor was always more an intellectual exercise than an experience .

 

And that's the difference . VR makes you feel . It is experiential .

 

BTW , TrackIr for sale .

[Deano87]

Exactly Svsmokey,

 

Once I went VR, I couldn't go back. Any compromises I have to make compared to "Pancake vision" is absolutely worth it in my eyes. Track IR feels absolutely ridiculous when I use it now on the odd occasion i'm forced to fly in 2D.

[timothyburton]

If you've ever flown DCS in VR, you would not be asking this question. So, to answer your question, VR. When in VR, you are no longer in a room looking at a monitor. You are in DCS World.

 

This. Buddy was deployed and he let me use his VR setup and GPU. I went back to a monitor when he got back 3 months later and I couldn't fly. I won't be flying until I can get a VR headset.

[Ranma13]

To offer a contrasting viewpoint, I have the HTC Vive and TrackIR and I vastly prefer TrackIR for the following reasons:

 

1. I get motion sickness when I fly in VR for too long. I know about the whole "getting your VR legs" thing, but combined with the other reasons, I don't feel the need to repeatedly punish myself so that one day I might get over it.

 

2. I have a cockpit with external monitors and several button boxes, all of which are unusable inside VR. I know there's people who can feel their way around, but it's not going to be the same as just looking at something and using it directly, especially when I have a F-16 ICP, A-10 UFC, 2 MFD panels, and an Elgato Stream Deck.

 

3. The headset gets hot after a while, and it's hard to keep it in the sweet spot. Either I have to pull the head straps tight enough to where they start to squeeze and hurt, or I keep them looser but have to constantly adjust the positioning to stay in the sweet spot.

 

4. It's impossible to look at reference materials such as tutorials, live maps, airport charts, etc. while in VR, and things like bathroom and water breaks have to be planned out because removing and putting the headset on, getting into the sweet spot, then feeling around for the joystick and throttle, is a whole process that I don't want to repeat too often.

 

5. The low resolution, even with super-sampling, is not great. MFDs and displays are too blurry to view comfortably unless I lean in, and combined with having to feel around for the MFD buttons means that I often feel like I'm just fumbling around instead of doing what I actually want to do. Ground targets without labels are all but impossible to spot, and air targets all look like black dots until you get really close.

 

6. The feeling of immersion is great at first, but I find that it quickly wears off and I find that the other things I stated above takes precedence. As someone else said, "VR is great if you're just flying around, but not when you actually want to do something beyond that".

 

I'm sure that there are workarounds and even decent solutions for these points, but taken as a whole, I find that I'd much rather fly in TrackIR and only lose the sense of immersion, vs. VR where I have to deal with all of the downsides.