Valve Index - new HMD in May

[Callsign.Vega]

2nd gen to me means clarity and lack of SDE. That's it. Current headsets are all terrible in those two respects.

[Jyge]

I don't remember the name of the Oculus developer that has made several predictions about VR. He said that 2nd gen would have foveated rendering and varifocal. Whereas it's probably not going to be spearheaded by Oculus, I still think that he got it right. Without foveated rendering the image won't be sharp without huge performance impact. The necessary PPD is simply too much. I don't think a GPU that would render the whole res is going to be there anytime soon...

[mhe]

Think we could get Gabe to send Wags a test unit? :D

 

I'd be surprised if Wags hasn't asked for one already :D

[Harlikwin]

I don't remember the name of the Oculus developer that has made several predictions about VR. He said that 2nd gen would have foveated rendering and varifocal. Whereas it's probably not going to be spearheaded by Oculus, I still think that he got it right. Without foveated rendering the image won't be sharp without huge performance impact. The necessary PPD is simply too much. I don't think a GPU that would render the whole res is going to be there anytime soon...

 

Well, realistically he was talking about the occulus half dome prototype that had all that "sort-of" working and a claimed PPD of 30. Then occulus canned the project. At a guess the tech might be there, just not a price point mortals can afford. The other thing is that VR is a pretty wide open field, and sims are a very small part of that market, and DCS is even a smaller slice. So what works well for "general VR" may not really be that great for DCS VR.

 

Realistically if I can buy a headset with a 25ppd or better display this year thats "good enough" for me. Past 30ppd the visual improvements are going to be pretty incremental from images I've seen. And since VR has hit mainstream we went from 7ppd with the protoype occulus DK1 to ~13 for the original rift and vive, then ~17 for the current gen sets like the O+, so I'd say Gfx cards have 'ish been keeping up and at a guess a 2080ti will be fine for 25ppd screens (whether or not its good enough for DCS is another matter).

[dburne]

I don't remember the name of the Oculus developer that has made several predictions about VR. He said that 2nd gen would have foveated rendering and varifocal. Whereas it's probably not going to be spearheaded by Oculus, I still think that he got it right. Without foveated rendering the image won't be sharp without huge performance impact. The necessary PPD is simply too much. I don't think a GPU that would render the whole res is going to be there anytime soon...

 

That came more from a presentation at F8 last May, showcasing Half Dome with Varifocal lenses.

It got a lot of folks excited about the new technology and the possible next generation of the Rift.

https://www.oculus.com/blog/introducing-the-team-behind-half-dome-facebook-reality-labs-varifocal-prototype/

 

Now we are where we are today, a new Rift being the Rift S made in partnership with Lenova...

So the bigger question - is Half Dome permanently shelved or just put in a holding pattern.

My personal opinion - Oculus has passed the baton on leading the charge for high end PC-VR for others to pick up. And likely part of the reason Brandon Iribe left the company if I had to guess.

 

I hung my Hat on Oculus for quite some time, not any more I am open to any new headset coming.

[mhe]

I think he referred to the original predictions by Michael Abrash.

[Harlikwin]

At the end of the day I think FR is technically much harder than folks thought, and the performance gains are too small as of yet.

[Jyge]

I think he referred to the original predictions by Michael Abrash.

 

 

Yes, that's him. I do not think this technology will be spearheaded by Oculus, but I think his predictions has a merit.

 

 

Here's one presentation from him @1:14

 

 

 

[dburne]

Yes, that's him. I do not think this technology will be spearheaded by Oculus, but I think his predictions has a merit.

 

 

Here's one presentation from him @1:14

 

 

 

 

Yeah Oculus has ceded being the leader in PC-VR tech.

Their primary focus is now mobile to grow the market. Which is fine and makes sense, but enthusiasts such as myself are looking for more than apparently Oculus will be providing us.

 

IMHO they kind of screwed the pooch for me on Rift S by not having a little bump in FOV along with resolution, and punting on the audio. They did a good job on the audio with the Rift CV1 and I was hoping for even a little better with the next Rift. Denied.

[Jyge]

Yeah Oculus has ceded being the leader in PC-VR tech.

Their primary focus is now mobile to grow the market. Which is fine and makes sense, but enthusiasts such as myself are looking for more than apparently Oculus will be providing us.

 

IMHO they kind of screwed the pooch for me on Rift S by not having a little bump in FOV along with resolution, and punting on the audio. They did a good job on the audio with the Rift CV1 and I was hoping for even a little better with the next Rift. Denied.

 

 

Yes, same here, I wonder how much difference the increase in subpixels make, but, all in all, Rift S being there and not really being the long awaited Rift 2, means just one thing - there is not going to be Rift 2 in 2019, it would rain too much in the parade of Quest and S.

[dburne]

Yes, same here, I wonder how much difference the increase in subpixels make, but, all in all, Rift S being there and not really being the long awaited Rift 2, means just one thing - there is not going to be Rift 2 in 2019, it would rain too much in the parade of Quest and S.

 

My 'guess" is they have shelved the technology they were showcasing for the next gen Rift - whether it ever gets revived who knows, I am certainly not going to try and hold out for it. I have held out and promoted Oculus long enough. Likely why Brandon Iribe left Oculus. I do not believe PC-VR is where they will lead any longer. I mean the Rift S heck they contracted out with Lenova for it.

Too many other good options now.

[Callsign.Vega]

Yes, Oculus is no longer for VR enthusiasts but for the low-cost masses. The S basically isn't any better than the CV1 launched three years ago.

[nrosko]

I was hoping Oculus would push out a higher tier pro version early next year but from what i hear that is not going to happen.

 

Alot of hope in Index i just fear it will disappoint many, then i may have to get a Rift S & a Reverb.

If Index does nail it with the specs the internet will go into meltdown.

[dburne]

Yes, Oculus is no longer for VR enthusiasts but for the low-cost masses. The S basically isn't any better than the CV1 launched three years ago.

 

It appears they intend to stay that way which is what I had guessed.

 

https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=3&hl=de&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.computerbase.de/2019-04/oculus-kein-high-end-vr-headset/&xid=17259,15700021,15700043,15700186,15700191,15700253,15700256,15700259

 

Bring on the Valve Index baby!

I have hung my hat on Oculus for long enough now.

[VirusAM]

Yes, Oculus is no longer for VR enthusiasts but for the low-cost masses. The S basically isn't any better than the CV1 launched three years ago.

 

 

 

I don’t think it is completely true...yes there is no ipd adjustment (but may wmr has the same) but the resolution is higher (almost like the other headests) and 10hz less will help performance and won’t be noticed so much

[mhe]

Still, Oculus is not improving on tech and specs at the rate the competition is. If the Index is what I hope it will be, it may have surpassed Oculus' Half Dome prototype before it went into production.

 

Also, nobody and nothing can currently hold a candle to StarVR. Except price-wise. As for Oculus, they will stay in the price/performance budget segment, but since VR is still a niche, the enthusiast segment is a lot bigger in this market than it is in others. I think Oculus is targeting an audience that doesn't really exist yet.

[nrosko]

Still, Oculus is not improving on tech and specs at the rate the competition is. If the Index is what I hope it will be, it may have surpassed Oculus' Half Dome prototype before it went into production.

 

Also, nobody and nothing can currently hold a candle to StarVR. Except price-wise. As for Oculus, they will stay in the price/performance budget segment, but since VR is still a niche, the enthusiast segment is a lot bigger in this market than it is in others. I think Oculus is targeting an audience that doesn't really exist yet.

 

Regarding Index, how often in life do things end up being what you hope it would be?

There is every chance it could be similar to the Rift S in specs.

All we know with 100% certainty is that its got a manual IPD.

 

So although i agree that Oculus are not moving as fast as i would like regarding specs there really is no competition until we know more about the Index. Thats speaking generally not just for sim enthusiasts as we could consider pimax & windows.

If windows mr had a better package ie controllers software & tracking the rift S would be toast.

[mhe]

Well we know that Gabe is unlikely to be satisfied with something that is merely up to the standards of Rift S or the Vive. Valve has quite a few patents on some VR tech that we haven't seen in use yet, so there is still a chance that some unique innovation will be presented come May.

 

Sure, there is always the potential for disappointment, but I consider it unlikely, there must be a reason why they did it all by themselves this time instead of going for HTC or any other partner again.

 

In the mainstream segment, Oculus is definitely the market leader and to some degree they dictate the pace of development of mainstream VR for now, but in the enthusiast segment they are already years behind.

 

I am one of the lucky ones who don't have to worry that much about price and I am willing to pay big bucks for superior tech. but that does not necessarily mean that it makes much sense to cater to people like me exclusively. It is great that there is a mainstream forming, as long as the enthusiast segment remains a thing, I have no problem with that.

 

I am quite sure that Valve will have to target a rather big audience as well due to economic reasons, but they are in a position to create exclusive content that is far beyond what Oculus can deliver in their little walled garden. If Valve releases an Orange Box or something similar alongside the Index, they could sell the Index at no profit at all and still make all the money with software.

 

Oculus could do that as well to a degree, but the Oculus marketplace is tiny compared to the Steam platform. Also, Valve can create a lot of revenue by platform sales alone, something that Oculus can't leverage to that degree.

 

So even at the same price, Valve has some means available to them that would allow them to integrate superior tech into the Index when compared with the Rift S. I think that it will roughly deliver soon what Oculus would have reserved for their CV2 (except maybe the dynamic focus optics from Half Dome, we know that Index uses a patented double fresnel system).

[Nagilem]

Personally, the Index for me sounds more compelling on paper, but the additional cost for lighthouses may be what pushes me to the Reverb unless the DCS reviews are STELLAR. Not sure I want to pay Vibe Pro prices for another mediocre HMD set.

 

If they can keep the price under $1000 and the set itself is good, no question they will sell a ton of them.

[Callsign.Vega]

I don’t think it is completely true...yes there is no ipd adjustment (but may wmr has the same) but the resolution is higher (almost like the other headests) and 10hz less will help performance and won’t be noticed so much

 

So now going backwards with refresh rate is a positive? LOL! Palmer Lucky said in testing 90 Hz was the minimum for a good VR experience. The Rift S is a joke.

[Svsmokey]

Yes , it is a positive , as it mitigates the otherwise negative possibilities of running a higher resolution headset . The Odyssey runs at 60 or 72 hz for the same reason , and many of us run the Rift at 45 with ASW off . Engineering ALWAYS involves trade-offs and refresh rate needs be no more the sacred cow than any other feature .

[nrosko]

I've not seen any complaints about the 80hz from those that tried it. I was always skeptical of the 90hz claim. Would be nice to have a choice.

[Harlikwin]

So now going backwards with refresh rate is a positive? LOL! Palmer Lucky said in testing 90 Hz was the minimum for a good VR experience. The Rift S is a joke.

 

Biologically speaking the reason you need high refresh rate is when things are moving at high speed, be that you, or the screeen. The higher the refresh rate, the more fluid and natural that looks, and its more immersive. There is also biological variation in perception, some folks have no problems with 60hz monitors, while other folks look at them and say they are slide show.

 

One big difference in VR is how its used and what is actually displayed. For DCS specifically, you aren't really moving, this greatly simplifies alot of problems. However, stuff can be moving very quickly in the "sim" and why folks complain most about DCS at low altitude, its hard to keep up in terms of frames there.

 

I also agree with your assessment of the RiftS.

[Dhorse]

I wonder how the Windows Mixed Reality support is handled in DCS today, what are your experience of that? I'm thinking about choosing between the Valve INDEX or the new Samsung Reverb. Unfortunately I did (still) experience a lot of issues with my WMR HP headset in dce yesterday. Including headset blacking out, even tho the WMR Portal still displays the DCS as open and working with its tracking. The screen/pilot head moving slightly drifting to the lef all of the time (when in the menu).

Anyone using a WMR in DCS right now?

[BIGNEWY]

I wonder how the Windows Mixed Reality support is handled in DCS today, what are your experience of that? I'm thinking about choosing between the Valve INDEX or the new Samsung Reverb. Unfortunately I did (still) experience a lot of issues with my WMR HP headset in dce yesterday. Including headset blacking out, even tho the WMR Portal still displays the DCS as open and working with its tracking. The screen/pilot head moving slightly drifting to the lef all of the time (when in the menu).

Anyone using a WMR in DCS right now?

 

I use a dell visor in DCS without any issues, simple to use, start wmr, start steam vr, load dcs and play