DCS Carrier Discussion

[Harlikwin]

That reminds me. I guess props are in order that there hasn’t yet been a massive 100 page

Thread on “how unfair it is that I can’t get into closed beta”.

There is hope after all!!

Seriously (just injecting a bit of introspective humor to this endless thread)

I am excited it is coming, patient about arrival and hesitant about frame-rate hit.

As I said earlier, MY hope is that they have the carrier about dialed in but the unknown is because they have to solve the underlying frame rate problem before they feel comfortable releasing. Maybe they backed themselves into a corner and are now forced to fix underlying problems with code

The delays could be a good thing for the whole sandbox!

 

Interesting, haven't seen a post about frame rates being bad, rather that MP was the issue. Not really surprised about the frame rate thing if its true though, ED desperately needs to work on the performance of the GFX engine before adding more "candy"...

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

Interesting, haven't seen a post about frame rates being bad, rather that MP was the issue. Not really surprised about the frame rate thing if its true though, ED desperately needs to work on the performance of the GFX engine before adding more "candy"...

 

Just pure speculation on my part. Nothing hard to go on. I just know that even with my system, I get pretty bad frames in VR. I can only imagine another module running simultaneously making it worse. Seems most agree that although results vary, the underlying code is very inefficient and have been calling for a rewrite.

So m hope is that the SC broke the camels back and they HAVE to re do underlying code.

Probably wrong but Would be nice!

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The reason why they don’t give more progress updates is YOU! (Us??)

 

No it isn't. ED have never been good at comms; this is just a continuation of their usual practices.

 

Anyway, even if there was some truth to that, there shouldn't be. If you're going to take people's money up front, be damn sure you can deliver; if you don't, either take the inevitable flak on the chin, or do something to mitigate the damage (which ED don't really seem to have done).

[purpi]

Released on 20 May.... IN WIP ACCESS :D 2 weeks. :censored:

 

 

Under construction "ED Shipyards" :fear:

Edited May 6, 2020 by purpi

[Harlikwin]

This whole subforum? Whenever they showed/posted something people (not all of course) started jumping to conclusions about paywalls, missing features, SP only release and how FUBAR DCS is as a whole. But the best thing was their COO starting a thread about an updated DCS roadmap. Something meant to be an honest communication attempt with the community ended up being an orgy of "when are you going to fix this?", "why is this not included?", "why is your code so bad?", "can we get module XY?" and of course the whole blaming ED for not having released SC back in April. Some guy was even furious that the SC preview video "clearly showed the module in a finished stated" and accused ED of fraud. We get it, you are frustrated and so am I to a certain degree. But ED are working on it and no new preview content will speed that up (possibly quite the oppisite).

 

The problem with that was expectations management has been an epic fail on ED's part for some time now. The new "timeline" from Kate and the whole moving the goalposts on the F18 is prima facia evidence of that. At the beginning of the year we were told both the F18 and F16 would be out of EA, then all of a sudden what out of EA for the F18 meant was changed and the F16 won't be. I can absolutely understand why customers are pissed off about that. What I don't understand is the apparent huge gulf between what management is telling us, and what the developers/coders must be telling management. From where I sit the communication problems aren't only between ED and customers, but it seems like there is a major internal breakdown(s) in communication/expectations which is even more troubling.

 

The orgy of complaints from the community also goes to show that ED/DCS has some serious core problems, that for good or ill aren't getting fixed. Maybe for lack of trying, or because they are too hard to fix, or whatever. But at the end of the day ED better be listening to those complaints and better be coming up with DCS engine 3.0 or whatnot to fix the most glaring of those issues or I forsee that DCS is gonna crater in a few years under the weight of these problems unless they get resolved. I meann no one is gonna want to play a game which might as well be using MS powerpoint to render whopping single digit frame rates in VR, or fly against an AI with the apparent IQ of a tall cool glass of beer. Or fly on an MP server where desynch gets more kills than the human players. And yes, I'm mildly overstating those issues in an attempt to inject a bit of levity at the situation, but they are all fairly bad issues that all need to be fixed, and unfortunately all at the same time because they have been neglected for a long time.

[sLYFa]

It'd be like me having paid my deposit on my new car and while waiting for delivery have Audi come back an announce...its their Policy not to include Brakes in the car in future...

Yeah only that audi has made millions of cars over almost a century while EDs products are second to none and delivering a fully functioning Hornet with yet-unseen detail and functionality is not rolling out the same vehicle for the bazzillionth time.

In case somebody hasn't noticed. There is nothing, NOTHING even remotely comparable to DCS in the consumer market. Thats not (only) for a lack of trying by other developers but because its insanely costly and time consuming to deliver a modern multirole fighter up to DCS standards.

Same goes for the SC. There is nothing like that anywhere else and likely won't be for the forseeable future. Its only natural that unforseen delays occur with these kinds of projects. I get that this whole EA thing gets frustrating but thats the realitiy and really the only way we can have such a high level of fidelity. It's certainly fine to criticise ED where apprropriate but things like "I paid money, I want release date NOW!" are not constructive.

[sLYFa]

I meann no one is gonna want to play a game which might as well be using MS powerpoint to render whopping single digit frame rates in VR, or fly against an AI with the apparent IQ of a tall cool glass of beer. Or fly on an MP server where desynch gets more kills than the human players. And yes, I'm mildly overstating those issues in an attempt to inject a bit of levity at the situation, but they are all fairly bad issues that all need to be fixed, and unfortunately all at the same time because they have been neglected for a long time.

 

I play VR and have more then single digit frames even on large MP servers (PGAW). I also seldomly get killed by lag and DCS certainly does not use MS PP to render frames.

While there is always room for improvement, I'm quite happy with DCS as it is now (well if they get the carriers sorted out, flying F-14s from the beach feels so wrong). That doesn't mean I don't won't them to fix bugs/introduce new features, but from my side of the fence, it's not nearly as bad as you and other people describe.

The thing is, those who don't have problems won't come to the forums and say so, while those who do have problems will voice their dissatisfaction. This creates a highly biased picture for anyone around here making DCS look far worse than it is, which is wrong and harmful. So while DCS is far from perfect, people should probably pump their brakes when sharing their list of what they think is wrong with DCS, as I'm sure ED are aware of the issues, And if not, a bug report is always welcome.

[Harlikwin]

Just pure speculation on my part. Nothing hard to go on. I just know that even with my system, I get pretty bad frames in VR. I can only imagine another module running simultaneously making it worse. Seems most agree that although results vary, the underlying code is very inefficient and have been calling for a rewrite.

So m hope is that the SC broke the camels back and they HAVE to re do underlying code.

Probably wrong but Would be nice!

 

What I recall being posted by Newy or 9L, was that things were looking good and then in last minute over the weekend MP testing major problems became apparent which is why they delayed it. And I do know that frame rates in MP tend to be worse than in SP for whatever set of reasons so it might be both.

 

Then again, VR frame rates have steadily gotten worse over the past year or so and I can imagine the carrier is probably not going to help that.

[Harlikwin]

I play VR and have more then single digit frames even on large MP servers (PGAW). I also seldomly get killed by lag and DCS certainly does not use MS PP to render frames.

While there is always room for improvement, I'm quite happy with DCS as it is now (well if they get the carriers sorted out, flying F-14s from the beach feels so wrong). That doesn't mean I don't won't them to fix bugs/introduce new features, but from my side of the fence, it's not nearly as bad as you and other people describe.

The thing is, those who don't have problems won't come to the forums and say so, while those who do have problems will voice their dissatisfaction. This creates a highly biased picture for anyone around here making DCS look far worse than it is, which is wrong and harmful. So while DCS is far from perfect, people should probably pump their brakes when sharing their list of what they think is wrong with DCS, as I'm sure ED are aware of the issues, And if not, a bug report is always welcome.

 

Maybe you missed the sentence that I was purposefully overstating those issues for dramatic/comedic effect.

 

But the problem as I see it is that there are issues with all of those things and they aren't getting fixed or getting better, rather worse as time goes by. A year ago when I got this new system I didn't have much problem with VR frame rates, I could easily pull in excess of 45fps usually 50-60 on the PG map which isn't that great considering most other sims have no problems with 90fps but overall it looked good enough and performed smoothly. Now online with the same exact system and generally the same settings (lower if anything) I'm struggling to hold 45 with ASW on and its mostly in the 30's with ghosting issues. When 2.5.6 was first released it would dip into the teens at times and chugged along in the 20's, though at least the worst of that seems to have been fixed. But the fact remains, that if you look at the long term trend for VR frame rates, its not getting better, its getting worse. Same thing for MP desynch and rubber banding, this has been a problem for years, and still is a problem under various circumstances. You might not see it always away from an airfield, but it totally can be there if you check things like tac-view.

 

And at the end of the day these things need to get fixed, along with a host of other issues. And they aren't being fixed. Rather we get more and more half finished paid for modules while the core game gets band aids to keep it chugging along. And that's not even discussing the increasing "deficit" they must have on maintaining the old modules as the game keeps getting updated, and the current issues with finishing existing EA modules.

 

When I compare it other flight sims, I have 0 issues pulling solid 90fps with the graphics settings mostly maxed. With no weird artifacting, ghosting, weird jaggies etc etc. MP tends to be more solid, and bugs fewer. I know DCS is more complicated and ambitious but at some point they need to address these festering issues.

 

I'm hoping that whatever the long term "vulkan" project is basically DCS 3.0, I had originally though MAC was going to be that, and it has disappeared. And that 3.0 would be a major rewrite of GFX code, MP, code, and some of those cool things like better AI/IADS etc. And I'm under no delusion that its a simple project, but IMO DCS really needs to get better in those core functionalities both for MP and SP play.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Harlikwin

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[Horns]

Heatblur were subject to some sort of community belief that the product should have been delivered by Xmas 2018 rather than anytime in Winter, and people got really upset. HB did a wise thing: they offered refunds to anyone who felt misled.

 

I'm surprised that ED isn't offering refunds despite missing an original and revised deadline. They are within their rights, but right now people who are upset about the way things have gone with SC can't do much except come here and complain, myself included.

[MAXsenna]

It's EA! Seriously! And they have said refund will be offered unless they meet 31st of May.

Can we get over this now? It's just a six pack. And why do you get into EA and not wait....

 

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[Havremonster]

Is the plan to releese the Marianas map together with the supercarrier? I really looking forward to that map :)

[Flamin_Squirrel]

It's EA! Seriously! And they have said refund will be offered unless they meet 31st of May.

Can we get over this now? It's just a six pack. And why do you get into EA and not wait....

 

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Probably because it's not really the money people are really concerned with, nor the date being missed in and of itself. It's that people genuinely care about this product, and the repeated PR gaffes are worrying them. I think for some at least, requests for a refund are just expressions of frustration.

[MAXsenna]

Probably because it's not really the money people are really concerned with, nor the date being missed in and of itself. It's that people genuinely care about this product, and the repeated PR gaffes are worrying them. I think for some at least, requests for a refund are just expressions of frustration.

 

Yeah. You're probably right. I was disappointed by the news of delay in the last minute as well. That was not handled right. But let's get over that, and see what May brings.

I was actually more disappointed by the "lack of" upgraded comms, that I thought was going to happen. But it is what it is, and hopefully we'll get it in the future.

Right now I'm pretty content with the try outs. And I've purchased what's good for me. I'll end up with all the modules at some point. But not today.

I will get the Kiowa at day one though!

 

 

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[Horns]

It's EA! Seriously! And they have said refund will be offered unless they meet 31st of May.

Can we get over this now? It's just a six pack. And why do you get into EA and not wait....

 

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My point was that people are coming here and complaining because it is the only remedy dissatisfied people have available right now, so if ED really want to take the temperature down here offering refunds is an option. Again, they're within their rights to not do so.

[MAXsenna]

My point was that people are coming here and complaining because it is the only remedy dissatisfied people have available right now, so if ED really want to take the temperature down here offering refunds is an option. Again, they're within their rights to not do so.

Okay. I apologize then. Misread you. But Kate have said, I ain't gonna look it up, that they will offer refunds if they don't meet 31st of May.

But of course, they can stand by it, and confirm it again!

Cheers!

 

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[jasonbirder]

It didn't go to we don't know when. Right after the missed release, they said the next date would be end of this month end of May, which Newy just re-stated.... Don't conflate your personal ignorance of the situation with actual reality.

 

 

"we are still planning for May sometime as long as testing goes to plan"

 

That hardly sounds like announcing a release date for the end of may...and more like an expression of wish...but hey! Its probably just my personal ignorance talking...

[Gierasimov]

Not quite

 

Is the plan to releese the Marianas map together with the supercarrier? I really looking forward to that map :)

 

No, there is no such plan.

There is a hope that Kate expressed to have it in early access this year though.

[jasonbirder]

Yeah only that audi has made millions of cars over almost a century while EDs products are second to none and delivering a fully functioning Hornet with yet-unseen detail and functionality is not rolling out the same vehicle for the bazzillionth time.

In case somebody hasn't noticed. There is nothing, NOTHING even remotely comparable to DCS in the consumer market. Thats not (only) for a lack of trying by other developers but because its insanely costly and time consuming to deliver a modern multirole fighter up to DCS standards.

Same goes for the SC. There is nothing like that anywhere else and likely won't be for the forseeable future. Its only natural that unforseen delays occur with these kinds of projects. I get that this whole EA thing gets frustrating but thats the realitiy and really the only way we can have such a high level of fidelity. It's certainly fine to criticise ED where apprropriate but things like "I paid money, I want release date NOW!" are not constructive.

 

 

That's no justification for selling a completed F/A18 module at price $x.xx (depending on when you paid) and then coming back and saying actually we might not deliver that at all...we'll deliver a % of those features and after that we'll see how it goes...

I have ZERO interest in playing a partly completed F/A18C module...indeed while I've purchased it...I haven't even opened it up...it sits awaiting completion...I fly the A10, the F5 and I fly Falcon 4 BMS...If they're ever finished I'll crack on with the Mirage, the Harrier and the Hornet...If I had known they were never going to be finished (as looks likely with the Harrier module and increasingly so with the Hornet) I'd never have purchased them...

I can't be the only one who feels the same way...

[Gierasimov]

DCS Supercarrier

 

This module is really heating up the debate, isn't it?

It probably means nothing to you, but I have developed two habits that help a lot.

 

1. When things are not well with DCS to the point I can't do what I do in DCS, I then go play other games, patiently waiting for things to get well.

 

2. When I get frustrated out of information posted here, I simply stay away from the forum for as long as I need to and concentrate on study aspects of the DCS.

 

Seriously gals and guys, take a chill pill, relax, enjoy - whatever makes you smile. Then, just for a moment think about Eagle Dynamics people and consider this -

They are like us. They have got their lives full of struggles, issues, and shortcomings - just like every other human being.

 

How many mistakes you have done in your lives, how many items slipped from your radar at work or school?

 

They will deliver, they always did since I remember.

[hein22]

This module is really heating up the debate, isn't it?

It probably means nothing to you, but I have developed two habits that help a lot.

 

1. When things are not well with DCS to the point I can't do what I do in DCS, I then go play other games, patiently waiting for things to get well.

 

2. When I get frustrated out of information posted here, I simply stay away from the forum for as long as I need to and concentrate on study aspects of the DCS.

 

Seriously gals and guys, take a chill pill, relax, enjoy - whatever makes you smile. Then, just for a moment think about Eagle Dynamics people and consider this -

They are like us. They have got their lives full of struggles, issues, and shortcomings - just like every other human being.

 

How many mistakes you have done in your lives, how many items slipped from your radar at work or school?

 

They will deliver, they always did since I remember.

 

Those would keep us away from DCS and forums for a long long time :)

[MAXsenna]

Snip...

 

Well, while the car analogy is a little off, and I completely agree, that DCS gives me seriously joy and a lot of bang(s) for the buck.

Jason has a valid point. IF you have prepaid a car and they somehow change it before delivery, not according to contract. Of course you'll get a refund. Not only that, if there's major flaw after delivery, they will recall and fix it no matter the costs.

We don't drive Audis in my family, just bimmers. And my parents just got a brand new engine free of charge, two years out of guarantee. Just saying.

But like I said. Can't really compare cars to software, but deliver what's promised when prepaid.

 

 

 

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[sLYFa]

but deliver what's promised when prepaid.

 

Thats true and of course should ED deliver what they promised and I'm sure they eventually will. The thing is that with this level of sophistication everybody expects from DCS modules, things happen to get out of hand and take longer than expected. But they are working on it and IMO thats as much as anybody can ask from them. I get the frustration I really do, but I try to appreciate/enjoy the things we already have more than looking at whats still missing.

[MAXsenna]

Thats true and of course should ED deliver what they promised and I'm sure they eventually will. The thing is that with this level of sophistication everybody expects from DCS modules, things happen to get out of hand and take longer than expected. But they are working on it and IMO thats as much as anybody can ask from them. I get the frustration I really do, but I try to appreciate/enjoy the things we already have more than looking at whats still missing.

Word man!

That's how I see it as well.

But the business model is flawed. Subscription model will kill this thing. But a kind of maintenance model might do it.

I might see it very different, but I come from oil and gas. 100K for one concurrent user license, geologically locked. And that's only for the core issue. And you still use it to guess...

 

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