Southern Baltic

[mazex]

Posted this in another thread, but then saw this "Map Wishlist" subforum.

So - this is my proposal, the Southern Baltic region. Not that much bigger than the upcoming Syria map, but naturally much more complex depending on the level of unique landmarks and small roads that will be implemented. I can live with a compromise in that domain.

A lot of interesting 1980:ies Cold war gone hot scenarios could be played out on this map... The big Soviet naval base / air bases of Kaliningrad in one corner, and room for US carrier groups in the North Sea outside Bremen, Viggens from southern Sweden, F-16:s from Denmark, Nato planes from Germany, Migs all over the former Eastern Block countries...

I actually did a CMANO Scenario for this way back when:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=769507143

Waves of SU-24:s, SU-17:s etc escorted by Su-27:s etc attacking Bornholm and Southern Sweden Swedish JA-37:s, J-35:s defending - and AJ-37:s going for the invasion armada. Danish F-16:s trying to save Bornholm from Mi-24:s and AIST hovercrafts from East Germany...

I did put down quite a bit of work to get the Soviet and Swedsih OOB for 1991 as correct as I could for the airbases around Kaliningrad with a lot of help from Michael Holms interesting site that I really can recommend for someone trying to get correct Soviet OOB:s done for a scenario in DCS as well

http://www.ww2.dk/new/newindex.htm

And this is the OOB for my scenario:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AfkM5CvzgQXWPZODsNcN_JFV6iGoW5oG3ltreQ3JVrk/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT AGAIN (adding my "final" proposal some posts down to the first post):

Thinking of it - as it mostly just adds a lot of water. We could expand the "box" west all the way to UK and include a bunch of 8:th AAF bomber / FTG bases (and Cold war bomber / attack bases) for the ones that like long missions... And yes, I did go a bit more south with this so Hamburg gets included as well with some more work naturally. But for both Cold War and WWII that really would be nice to have as well. And for Carrier OPs it makes more sense to keep the carriers a bit further from the European coast line any way... Map of 8:th AAF bases in 1944: http://www.303rdbg.com/h-england-map.html They fortunately where in just that "corner" of England that is perfect to reduce the amount of "unnecessary" land mass to model And with this we manage to squeeze in the Lakenheath airbase on the map which soon is going to be the only USAF base in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Lakenheath We also gets some air bases for the Netherlands like Leeuwarden Air Base without getting the populated areas in scope

 

 

And still - the only major cities on this map are Hamburg and Copenhagen. Smaller towns otherwise that don't require modelling of landmarks. Do a fairly simple wall around the old town Lubeck, add the Laboe tower and locks in Kiel etc. Not "that" hard. And "real bases" for almost of our planes in the set. Both WWII and Cold war.

EDIT: My utlimate proposal further down this thread after discussion - where the "deleted" area can be low res terrain map  

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by mazex
Shortened it down a bit...

[Baco]

Even tho the size in kilometers/miles is not that big, the sheer complexity and objects is monstrous.

 

Huge very iconic cities, a very densely populated area it would be three or four times the size in GB, of Syria and I doubt any PC now a days could run it because the amount of Objects.

[mazex]

Even tho the size in kilometers/miles is not that big, the sheer complexity and objects is monstrous.

 

Huge very iconic cities, a very densely populated area it would be three or four times the size in GB, of Syria and I doubt any PC now a days could run it because the amount of Objects.

 

Mmm, you might be right...

 

But, on the cut below it's clearly smaller than the Syria map, and actually not more than a couple of million people living on this cut (almost like Damascus ;)). No large cities accept Copenhagen actually, and the german / polish coast line is actually not that populated. Rather sparsely populated area for being Europe actually... And the water percent increases ;) Added some North Sea to the west to get those US Carriers in a nice position...

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by mazex
Added a tiny bit more south so it was not only the coast of Germany

[Baco]

Now THAT should be doable, and not to mention very nice indeed!

And a very fit terrain for the Viggen!

[mazex]

Now THAT should be doable, and not to mention very nice indeed!

And a very fit terrain for the Viggen!

Realized that it needs just a bit more north that would not add much complexity to get the Swedish F5 and F17 airbases in scope. F5 that is just at the north edge now did fly J-35:s during the cold war (converted to JAS-39 and was closed after that). F17 flew Viggens during the cold war and fly JAS-39 today... And there where other road bases for Viggen in the map area. Come to think of it, they flew CH-46 (HKP 4 in Sweden) anti submarine helicopters from F17 as well - that would be an interesting addition to the Heli missions :) Multi player where someone mans the sonar station. And you could get away with simple 3D models of the subs as they should be invisible on map :) And naturally SwAF had Hueys like everyone else...

 

Some F-16 bases in Denmark are in scope, Skydstrup that still fly F-16 etc, Denmark flew J-35 from Bornholm if I don't remember it wrong and do fly F-16:s there today "when needed" ... And the West German bases with all sort of planes... And these are all NATO bases so any west plane fits the scenario with realism.

 

I included Darlowo on the far east side of the map that was an old WP airbase there that I know of, but there are naturally a bunch of others for our Migs and Su:s.

 

Note - J-35 Draken is in development by Heatblur, initially as AI only - but with hints that it might come as a module.

 

EDIT:

 

A screenshot from my CMANO (Command Modern Air / Naval Operations) scenario for the area I propose - in this scenario you control Sweden, Denmark or Soviet Union. Sweden has Viggens from F17, Viggens from F7 on roadbases, J-35:s and SK-60 (as light attack) from F5 for Sweden. For Denmark you have F16:s from Skrydstrup (the base to the far west on the image below) and J-35 from Bornholm. But - did not include any West German bases for this scenario and the main WP bases in this scenario are in the Kaliningrad area that is not included in the screenshot.

 

 

Example or east german cold war bases that could be included (the famous Peenemünde for example flew Migs of all sorts in the cold war 15,17,21 etc)

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by mazex

[Stratos]

If they release this map I will get both, the map and the Viggen.

[Baco]

It wuld also be very suitable for WWII, with Peenemunde there adn all...

[xvii-Dietrich]

It wuld also be very suitable for WWII, with Peenemunde there adn all...

 

 

Good point.

 

 

The only downside is that there are no places for the Allied aircraft to take off and land.

 

 

But B-17 raids could be "air-spawned", which means it would be a great place for operating "Defence of the Reich" type intercept raids for the late-war Luftwaffe aircraft.

[Knock-Knock]

Oooh, as a Dane I can only give this my :thumbup:

But, 80-90% of the featured terrain is pancake flat, like Normandy flat, so that part is a bit boring.

[mazex]

Good point.

 

 

The only downside is that there are no places for the Allied aircraft to take off and land.

 

 

But B-17 raids could be "air-spawned", which means it would be a great place for operating "Defence of the Reich" type intercept raids for the late-war Luftwaffe aircraft.

 

Well, not for the western allies at least accept the very last week or two of the war where they reached Lubeck. To get acutal airbases for US/UK etc it would need to expanded a bit south, but still for the last month of the war. For USSR they where advancing along the baltic coast line in the map - so from march 1945 they would also have bases that are in the eastern part of the map.

 

So for the final week of the war there are possible allied bases for both east and west :)

 

Look at the map below:

 

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_1944_5.htm

 

Interesting to see the western advance the very last two weeks of the war, and the resulting cold war "frontline" from that.

 

For a late war western allies WWII map the area around Belgium / Netherlands would be better (and the reason someone selected that for a Bodenplatte scenario). But that map would not be as interesting for a cold war "frontline" engagement. To get that in play for cold war the Soviet Union would have already "won" Germany to get USSR bases in that area.

 

For Cold war the "classic" candidate is naturally the "Fulda Gap" - but not interesting for WWII and no water for carriers etc. without including a big chunk of central Europe. So therefore my candidate remains what I proposed above that actually works for both. If possible as DCS maps are not necessarily "square", the costline area of the German North Sea and Netherlands could be included for WWII. But to get to US/UK bases that where used for more than weeks we would need to get down to the Belgian coast.

 

Tell me a plane in our set that has not spent time in the air above the southen baltic map IRL? The upcoming Chinese naturally (yet ;)), but the others have been flying there. And most have actually at some time been based at airports in the map area as there are a number of NATO bases in the western part of the map.

 

And sure Knock-Knock, it is a flat area, but an intersting non linear coastline with islands, many different countries etc. Not just a straight coastline like Normandy. So from that perspective it will be much more "interesting" from the air than Normandy I think.

 

The area with a cold war coloring. Where else do we get that many countries, actual permanent bases for Nato / WP / Neutral + quite a lot of water for Carriers and naval based missions? And no major cities with landmarks and stuff?

 

 

Thinking of it - as it mostly just adds a lot of water. We could expand the "box" west all the way to UK and include a bunch of 8:th AAF bomber / FTG bases (and Cold war bomber / attack bases) for the ones that like long missions... And yes, I did go a bit more south with this so Hamburg gets included as well with some more work naturally. But for both Cold War and WWII that really would be nice to have as well. And for Carrier OPs it makes more sense to keep the carriers a bit further from the European coast line any way... Map of 8:th AAF bases in 1944: http://www.303rdbg.com/h-england-map.html They fortunately where in just that "corner" of England that is perfect to reduce the amount of "unnecessary" land mass to model :) And with this we manage to squeeze in the Lakenheath airbase on the map which soon is going to be the only USAF base in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Lakenheath We also gets some air bases for the Netherlands like Leeuwarden Air Base without getting the populated areas in scope :)

 

 

And still - the only major cities on this map are Hamburg and Copenhagen. Smaller towns otherwise that don't require modelling of landmarks. Do a fairly simple wall around the old town Lubeck, add the Laboe tower and locks in Kiel etc. Not "that" hard. And "real bases" for almost of our planes in the set. Both WWII and Cold war.

Edited May 1, 2019 by mazex

[xvii-Dietrich]

@mazex Many thanks for taking the time researching and writing that up. You make some very good points and I learned a lot looking into what you present. Much appreciated!

 

 

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/europe_1944_5.htm

 

Interesting to see the western advance the very last two weeks of the war, and the resulting cold war "frontline" from that.

 

Good link. Yes, the last week would be a potential scenario. Of course we do not have Soviet WWII aircraft (yet!), but a Soviet-marked Spitfire could be used I guess. Definitely.

 

 

I note on the map that the Kiel/Flensburg areas are still German at the war's end. So, apart from the Peenemünde site, the Kieler Bucht U-boat bases could be potential targets (esp as an AI U-boat unit is supposedly planned for DCS). All of these would be good not just for long-distance B-17 raids, but also for the DH-98 (also supposedly in planning).

 

 

Tell me a plane in our set that has not spent time in the air above the southen baltic map IRL?

 

Nice. (Got me thinking... but, yep, point well made!)

 

And sure Knock-Knock, it is a flat area, but an intersting non linear coastline with islands, many different countries etc. Not just a straight coastline like Normandy. So from that perspective it will be much more "interesting" from the air than Normandy I think.

 

Agreed.

 

 

Thinking of it - as it mostly just adds a lot of water. We could expand the "box" west all the way to UK and include a bunch of 8:th AAF bomber / FTG bases (and Cold war bomber / attack bases) for the ones that like long missions...

 

{...}

 

And still - the only major cities on this map are Hamburg and Copenhagen. Smaller towns otherwise that don't require modelling of landmarks. Do a fairly simple wall around the old town Lubeck, add the Laboe tower and locks in Kiel etc. Not "that" hard.

 

Of course, I like the expanded map idea, especially to put the carriers out at a bit more distance for Cold War. And a single airbase in Norfolk would really help (in the same way that the single Luftwaffe base on the Normandy map really helps too).

 

To model any area, means having "empty" terrain along the edge of the map. If you consider the Persian Gulk map, about 70% of the Gulf coast is unpopulated just to give the visual of the coastline from altitude. This could be done with Norfolk and a single base placed for the long range B-17s (WW2 scenario) or B-1 bombers or interceptors (Cold War).

[mazex]

Did some more thinking on this based on other baltic proposals... It really would be nice to squeeze in Kaliningrad and some Baltic coast line without adding to much more ground to model. So:

 

 

And yes - that deleted area can have elevation but no details like in other maps. It deletes Berlin etc that would be great to have - but focusing on the "coastal areas" removes more than 50% of the European densely populated ground to model... And there are so many scenarios that can take place on this. Cold war, WW II and present day with Russian fighters from Kaliningrad probing the Swedish and Danish air defences every week lately...

 

And like before - only really big cities are Hamburg and Copenhagen. With this the Gdynia / Gdansk area is added as well that is a ~500k poulated area. Groningen is 200k. But make cities rather generic - this is a military sim not a sight seeing sim like others.

[exhausted]

They should do this, and add the F-5A and Drakken!

[bies]

Southern Baltic or Fulda Gap, 1970s -1980s Cold War, NATO vs. WARPAC Soviet Union Red Strorm Rising would be awesome. The ultimate map and scenario.

[Lokattn]

I am 100% in favor of making a Southern Baltic map. It's a very strategically important and interesting area.

[IcedVenom]

Instead of a Southern Baltic map, honestly it should be an Eastern Baltic map that encompasses the Baltic countries, Kaliningrad, Poland, Sweden and maybe a little bit of Finland.

Edited March 13, 2021 by IcedVenom

[TOMCATZ]

I did it for Falcon BMS 4.33. That area is very important and the Falcon drivers loved that terrain! That is one of the most important area of Europe. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HKQAzICIY

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/w5HKQAzICIY" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

Cheers

Tom

[mazex]

On 4/11/2021 at 7:16 PM, TOMCATZ said:

I did it for Falcon BMS 4.33. That area is very important and the Falcon drivers loved that terrain! That is one of the most important area of Europe. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5HKQAzICIY

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/w5HKQAzICIY" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

Cheers

Tom

 

I did download and enjoy that map for BMS! Thanks a lot for your efforts - it must have been many hours to do that map! And looking at you sig I have flown an Astir over that terrain ILR too

Edited April 29, 2021 by mazex

[spacemishka]

A Complete Baltic Sea-Maps would be interessting. That would allow the Finns to join the party. 

[mazex]

I really feel that a map like this would be great, and somehow possible to do. Water, not THAT many big cities. And almost all our aircraft have been in the air here for real... 

[spacemishka]

With the anouncement of the Kola-Map we have maybe something similar.....actually it is a bit unexpected why this area was choosen, but personally looking forward positiv

[Baco]

Well Kola eliminates Europes "hi density populated areas" problem.  All tho I agree, if they could bring themselves to just do generic cities with maybe a limit of 4 or 5 iconic structures in each, instead of painstakingly reproducing every building in the city, it would be easier to include large populated areas.

[BalticDude]

Needs more Lithuania and Belarus

[Goatman]

I feel a map over the three Baltic states and Baltic sea would be a good one.

[mazex]

On 10/2/2022 at 11:28 PM, BalticDude said:

Needs more Lithuania and Belarus

I can agree with that. More like the cut in my original proposal. But then stretching to UK... It is really not that much land. And I think that too much time in the maps is spent on cities that scares them away from maps like this. Just add rather generic repeating buildings and industrial areas.