DCS 3.0+

[Lace]

So last night I found myself wondering where DCS can go in the long term, not just minor tweaks here and there but a full re-write in the next 5-10 years. Imagine the a whole world photoreal map with a <1m mesh and 3D buildings to allow long transits between detailed AOs. Imagine the fidelity of controlling a single soldier (like Counterstrike) in a world with the fine detail of GTA. The mud physics and heavy-vehicle handling of Spintires. More study-level modules for aircraft, ground vehicles and ships. Full bathymetry and even subs! The strategic planning of CMANO. Not to mention full VR integration with haptic feedback.

 

 

 

As someone who started using war-fighting simulators in the early 90's DCS is already above and beyond what I even could have wished for. I don't often watch the replays of my flights but I recently watched my M2000 take out a convoy of vehicles with cluster munitions, from the POV of one of the ground units. I actually felt slightly unnerved at the (perceived) realism and brutal destruction wrought.

 

 

Keep up the great work ED, I can't wait to see what the future brings!

[Silver_Dragon]

Hi Lace

 

-ED has plans to make a "whole world" technology in a "future".

-Control FPS soldiers not sure, but we like see more improvements on CA and the "ground" environment.

-Yo-Yo talk some time ago about the ED team has look the interaction on sand, grass and other surfaces by aircraft, surely can be exported if complete to vehicles and building on a future mud conditions.

- Dont worry about the Study level modules, more aircraft's and helos modules has in develop and more planned (check the unofficial roadmap on my signature). ground and signatures has community dreams, but ED has some steeps forward about a "ship" modules with the incoming carriers.

- The dynamic campaign has on develop, not sure the future interaction level with CA, but expected see some improvements.

- About VR harpic feedback, surely we can see some of them in the future.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Silver_Dragon

[Saigon]

I hope they introduce real weather option in a short future. would give the simulator an additional realism and dynamism.

[gorzasty]

My bet is they try to finish FA-18 in 5 to 10 years.l ;)

 

Wysłane z mojego SM-G960F przy użyciu Tapatalka

Edited May 6, 2019 by gorzasty

[Gruw]

I hope they introduce real weather option in a short future. would give the simulator an additional realism and dynamism.

 

 

OT

This is very important but .... no news about it for too long.

I hope ED will give us news very soon.

 

/OT

[Saigon]

yes, maybe for some it may seem of little use, but this function would give a big change to the simulator bringing it to a higher level of simulation. on xplane I always used it and the same flight the same route or mission every day becomes different.

[Worrazen]

Hi Lace

 

-ED has plans to make a "whole world" technology in a "future".

-Control FPS soldiers not sure, but we like see more improvements on CA and the "ground" environment.

-Yo-Yo talk some time ago about the ED team has look the interaction on sand, grass and other surfaces by aircraft, surely can be exported if complete to vehicles and building on a future mud conditions.

- Dont worry about the Study level modules, more aircraft's and helos modules has in develop and more planned (check the unofficial roadmap on my signature). ground and signatures has community dreams, but ED has some steeps forward about a "ship" modules with the incoming carriers.

- The dynamic campaign has on develop, not sure the future interaction level with CA, but expected see some improvements.

- About VR harpic feedback, surely we can see some of them in the future.

 

 

Also please add to that the improvemement to the radio signal simulation for communications across the board (ATC, voice, datalink(? if that's not sat based?), target acquirement, SAM site interlinks between (not just radars) and proper propagation and reflection across terrain/obstacles, and even behavioral differences due to weather (cloud thickness&saturation, rain, storm, water is electrical conductor remember) so that ranges would be proportionally correct and 3D correct plus based on the antenna geometry.

 

 

 

This will help with the realism regarding using the terrain obstacles in active battle to your advantage and hiding behind a hill would mean more than just a visual spotting effect.

 

Because that ties in with the dynamic F10 Map View idea which is about integrating fog of war and the data (which I didn't made a thread about yet but I will soon)

 

 

Ofocurse it's not real ray-tracing but that would probably be the big future, but we can have something simulated earlier, and even if the tech looks advanced for home PCs, hardware will improve faster, and you can always tone it down the resolution of this to optimize it for shipping like the rest of the stuff.

 

 

I don't see anyone talking about this so that's why I'm big into it to make sure some parts of the sim aren't forotten :)

Edited May 6, 2019 by Worrazen

[BuzzU]

How big of an SSD will we need for the whole world?

[OnlyforDCS]

I would be happy with just a weather system graphical upgrade, and ATC, GCI and multiplayer comm improvements.

[delevero]

Actual there are "game engines" that are able to procedural scale the entire world and even in high detail.

( in this case the terrain and roads/forrest and so on )

However i would imagine it is possible to use gps meta data and google earth data and somehow import and auto generate premade buildings onto the entire terrain as well.

 

If this even i compatible with dcs world well i doubt it, but never the less it show us what we can do today... so it should be plausible flight sims could tage advantage of this and use it in 2-4-6 years from now

( its been arround for couple of years now )

 

Have a look at this

 

[Nooch]

@OP

 

This an unrealistic expectation. Yes, you can download all the photo tiles from Bing or Google and make an entire photorealistic earth that way. In theory it sounds amazingly awesome. In practice not so much... There are a lot of tiles that don't fit with each other in terms of colors (depending of when the associated satellite picture was taken). So you end up with a square of green and a square of orange / brown next to each other, which looks completely disgusting. You can always color correct tiles one by one but imagine the manpower associated with that...

 

Also not all areas are available in high res. A lot of places (including first world country) are still only available in low res and they would look awful in the sim unless you're flying at very high altitude.

 

When it comes to a whole world where you can control a soldier, drive any vehicle, including submarines, go to the grocery store or whatever... that's just way too much to ask. ED would need to hire the entire Arma, Grand Theft Auto and Silent Hunter dev teams to make it happen!

 

Let's be a bit sensible here.

[Svsmokey]

Sensible ? Here ?

[Lace]

@OP

 

This an unrealistic expectation. Yes, you can download all the photo tiles from Bing or Google and make an entire photorealistic earth that way. In theory it sounds amazingly awesome. In practice not so much... There are a lot of tiles that don't fit with each other in terms of colors (depending of when the associated satellite picture was taken). So you end up with a square of green and a square of orange / brown next to each other, which looks completely disgusting. You can always color correct tiles one by one but imagine the manpower associated with that...

 

Also not all areas are available in high res. A lot of places (including first world country) are still only available in low res and they would look awful in the sim unless you're flying at very high altitude.

 

When it comes to a whole world where you can control a soldier, drive any vehicle, including submarines, go to the grocery store or whatever... that's just way too much to ask. ED would need to hire the entire Arma, Grand Theft Auto and Silent Hunter dev teams to make it happen!

 

Let's be a bit sensible here.

 

 

As I eluded to in my post, the gaming industry has come far further in the last 20-30 years than some of us ever imagined. This was not meant as a request for ED and I'm not saying this should be done now, or next year, but the next generation of simulation and the one after that will undoubtedly move the situation on further. Take a look at Falcon 4.0 (or 3.0 if you want to go way back to '91) and compare it to DCS today. That is 20 years of progress. Where will the next 20 years take us? It may not be realistic to expect today, with today's hardware, but it is disingenuous to suggest it will never be possible.

[beppe_goodoldrebel]

I wish they could implement a good ATC system, dynamic weather and a good dynamic campaign.

 

I think many of us want more aircrafts but too many times we ended up knowing avionics , precedures , etc.. but with nothing to do with them.

[Nooch]

It may not be realistic to expect today, with today's hardware, but it is disingenuous to suggest it will never be possible.

 

No, not never. Maybe one day but not in the near future. Even in ten years, it would be quite an optimistic wish.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Nooch

[Fri13]

OT

This is very important but .... no news about it for too long.

I hope ED will give us news very soon.

 

/OT

 

The Wags interview in the podcast (everyone should already have listened it or at least have link to it: https://alert5podcast.podbean.com/e/scramble-04-matt-wags-wagner/) says that the weather system is in complete rewrite at the moment. And they are currently focusing on the core features of it like moisture simulation.

 

As that is the one of the core elements in the weather predictions and weather forming, so it is very deep one really.

 

IMHO there are three critical features in the DCS that are going to change everything.

 

1) Weather system. A realistic looking clouds and forms. Their realistic affect to weapons like IR missiles and flares etc. As well affection to radars (low bandwidth radars etc) and all thermal systems. This as well affects not just Air-to-Air missiles, bit it will change all in the Air-to-Ground missiles, meaning your Mavericks are not anymore flying 15 nm, but are really limited to 2-5 kilometer lock ranges as the weather system changes all. You can dodge IR missiles by flying in the clouds, behind the clouds etc. The dog fights will change as visual spotting becomes far more challenging and that goes through WW2 to modern era. And the FLIR systems for targeting becomes far less effective and trustworthy because false alarms or not seeing targets.

 

2) Randomly generated ground elements. And by "Randomly" I mean that map designer does not need to add all the elements by themselves, but focus on the core elements like roads, cities, towns, individual buildings, landmarks, main rivers etc. Rest in the map are filled by the computer like rocks, bushes, small trees etc. Most of these things are not visible to the fighter pilots anywhere else than near airfields where they take-off and land, and even when they fly low altitude strike missions (Viggen etc) they do not get full fidelity graphics as they go so fast. But instead helicopter pilots and WW2 pilots will get that task, but they fly lower and so on long range graphics drawn can be limited. This would mean that there are far more ground details that are correctly synced between players in multiplayer (as it is a digital object mark on the map for all) and each has a effect for FLIR, TIS and all targeting systems. So lots of laser echoes, false IR signatures, blocking IR signature etc. And visually it will change all as ground units are made partially transparent if not fully transparent, so you can't spot them at range or altitude so easily if they are not moving or casting strong shadows etc (you can see the shadow ie.). Lower/Closer you are then more detailed ground and units you will see.

 

3) Strategy game functionality of the ground troops. Thousands of infantries that create tens of companies, hundreds of platoons and teams. Moving, operating etc as in a good RTS game. A Artificial Intelligence that has basic core features, like automatic infantry mounting, unmounting, self-awareness for self-defence, moral and fear. Like the few things that "Close Combat" RTS genre had already decades ago. Meaning ground combat is no about mass vs mass, but every team/squad is trying to stay a live, trying to fill their objectives safely. There can come lots of situations where either side can't attack as it is too risky for either side, and such situations are where airforce can break the tie by destroying the single MBT and couple IFV that are holding a own troops advancements.

 

The point is that the the pilots work will get far heavier. It is not anymore just "Study Sim" where you can sit in the parking slot and study how the aircraft avionics and systems works and then execute a training attack in fully controlled manner like in a shooting range where you have a one target at position X and your task is to just know how to get the weapon there. In this time at the DCS 1.x series it was too demanding for the hardware. But since the 1.5 the hardware is there, question is just to actually make it. And it requires too big changes in the DCS core it to be a soon made difference. As it will break down almost everything that there is regarding the missions, ground units and eventually just whole gameplay.

[Exorcet]

My hopes for 3.0 wouldn't be graphical. DCS looks very nice as it is. I'd prefer such an update to focus on AI (including wingman logic, AWACS, and ATC), multithreading, weather simulation, and UI/tools for creating missions which many abilities only available in LUA scripting to be added into the ME.

 

 

I am actually a bit curious on the timeline for 3.0, if it ever comes. Unless my current machine starts to get bogged down my plan is to wait for 3.0 to do a ridiculous DCS oriented build.

[joey45]

How big of an SSD will we need for the whole world?

 

As someone said once

"You don't need anything above 850mb drive"

 

or words to that affect...

[hansangb]

How big of an SSD will we need for the whole world?

 

 

Technology always advances. Graphical representation will change (middle out? :D) And there is the doubling of areal density which will soon give us 100TB SSDs.

 

As i fly in my VR, I can't believe how much we have advanced. 40 years ago, I thought US Army's SIMNET was incredible. And that was using Microprose Gunship like polygon graphics.

 

The next wave of DCS will be 100% VR with haptic feedback gloves that allow you to interact with the cockpit. I don't mean replacing HOTAS, I'm talking about interacting with the cockpit. In a few years, no one will be flying with 2D monitors.

 

Affordable 6DOF motion simulators will become as common as the $500 HOTAS setup, or the $1,000 VR setup of today.

 

Where battles like Pear Harbor, and Final Countdown will become possible. And I CANNOT WAIT!:D

[Fri13]

As someone said once

"You don't need anything above 850mb drive"

 

or words to that affect...

 

96 Kilobytes is enough: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger

 

 

Of course it is using the DirectX library graphics etc, but that is the point in those demos, what you can do with limited space.

[XtraChrisP]

So last night I found myself wondering where DCS can go in the long term, not just minor tweaks here and there but a full re-write in the next 5-10 years. Imagine the a whole world photoreal map with a <1m mesh and 3D buildings to allow long transits between detailed AOs. Imagine the fidelity of controlling a single soldier (like Counterstrike) in a world with the fine detail of GTA. The mud physics and heavy-vehicle handling of Spintires. More study-level modules for aircraft, ground vehicles and ships. Full bathymetry and even subs! The strategic planning of CMANO. Not to mention full VR integration with haptic feedback.

 

 

 

As someone who started using war-fighting simulators in the early 90's DCS is already above and beyond what I even could have wished for. I don't often watch the replays of my flights but I recently watched my M2000 take out a convoy of vehicles with cluster munitions, from the POV of one of the ground units. I actually felt slightly unnerved at the (perceived) realism and brutal destruction wrought.

 

 

Keep up the great work ED, I can't wait to see what the future brings!

 

Ugh... I could smell my CPU melting just by reading this post....

[Xilon_x]

so far, of all the air war simulators, no one has ever reproduced the whole world.

Falcon 4.0 never.

IL-2 never.

I don't understand why this task of reproducing the whole world must be done by DCS. impossible.

The problem of reproducing the whole world with sufficient 3D details concerns the technology of PCs and programmers the only whole world digitized and done well on PCs and GOOGLE EARTH there is no alternative to google earth.

[hansangb]

so far, of all the air war simulators, no one has ever reproduced the whole world.

Falcon 4.0 never.

IL-2 never.

I don't understand why this task of reproducing the whole world must be done by DCS. impossible.

The problem of reproducing the whole world with sufficient 3D details concerns the technology of PCs and programmers the only whole world digitized and done well on PCs and GOOGLE EARTH there is no alternative to google earth.

 

 

15 years ago, there was no Google Earth. 27 years ago, there was no Internet save those of us using Unix and directly connected to it. I still recall my machine that was connected to the Internet and the term firewall did not exist. 300 MB, never mind GB, hard drives in early 1990's cost about $1,000 USD. By late 1990's it was down to $500 or so.

 

Technology changes. It's incredibly short sighted to think that "it's impossible"

[Lace]

15 years ago, there was no Google Earth. 27 years ago, there was no Internet save those of us using Unix and directly connected to it. I still recall my machine that was connected to the Internet and the term firewall did not exist. 300 MB, never mind GB, hard drives in early 1990's cost about $1,000 USD. By late 1990's it was down to $500 or so.

 

Technology changes. It's incredibly short sighted to think that "it's impossible"

 

I remember my first 40MB hard drive. I thought I could never fill it. What is that nowadays? One hi-res photo. Maybe.

[Baco]

I have been flying sims since 1984 Got hooked with Sublogics Flight Simulator.

 

That square was my simulated World... in the 80´s (38 years give or take)

Today we have hi res photo-realistic models, and a fairly realistic landscape. Hell some Screenshots are hard to discern if they are DCS or the real deal...

So yes it might come. But I don´t think it will be 10 years.. maybe 20, or 25. Why? no need , no income, no incentive.

 

I think military sims do not need the world, but need different theaters, I don´t see anybody deploying from NAS, to Iraq in real simulated time...

 

What We might see is tools to develop this theaters more quickly But i doubt we will se this huge virtual world with planes soldiers, ships, etc...