Valve Index Hands On

[Svsmokey]

4 mins into this and the guy's frame rate is jerky as hell. He's only on a 1070 or was that 1070 Ti, so that explains that to some extent.

 

And he already admitting that when he sits back in his seat he can't see much detail on the dials; when he leans forward almost to his desk he can read most dials (kinda, just) but still not all of them...

 

8 mins... I just can't watch it... the frame rate is too choppy.

 

Terrible advert for VR that is for sure.

 

I certainly agree that was painful to watch . The guy's hyper-active head movements , (exacerbated by the monitor mirror) made me quit the vid too !

 

But i would not draw any hardware conclusions from that vid , absent settings info , systems specs , etc . He didn't even specify what refresh rate he was running in the few minutes i was able to endure . And i should point out that the P-51 is NOT a particularly VR-friendly aircraft .

 

Horrible advertisment for VR indeed !

[Nagilem]

Received my index Friday and finally got some solid time in tonight. After getting it set up, which was much less painful than I expected, i found the experience very good. With 150% ss in steam, motion smoothing off @ 90hz, my experience was good. I found the headset comfortable, the audio superb, and compared to my o+, the headset has about the same fov with the knob cranked in to my eye comfortably. The index seems 20% dimmer, 10-15% sharper than the o+, with the reasonable contrast during day flights. Night flights are not so good, with blacks really looking dark gray. In this regard the o+ really out performs. Overall I like it. Much much better than the reverb in my opinion. To me, the o+ tuned correctly is a great value for a VR headset. I will likely continue with the index as I found the aliasing to also be better. With msaa x2 on, I get mostly shimmer free 45fps in Sochi. Dubai is a bit of a crap shoot in FPS. My only mild complaint is that I do get a lot of ghosting with motion smoothing on. It gets better if I turn it off but only slightly. I think that may get corrected with updates. To answer whether if I’d buy it again, I think i would. It’s not wildly better than the o+ but it is better. I think since i plan to play other games than dcs, the spend is likely worth it.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Nagilem

[Baldrick33]

Thank you for that ! I mis-spoke . I meant to say it is gonna be the Index for me :) Reverb has never been on my radar . Have since edited the post you referred to . Thanks again...

Ah that explains it, the answers seemed positive for your needs re the Index then you jumped on the Reverb :)

[Loz]

What are you talking about?

 

Hornet in VR, even in the Index, is basically unplayable compared to a 4k monitor.

 

I thought maybe the improvement in SDE would differentiate the Index, but I was wrong.

 

 

 

VR is simply unplayable with the Hornet. I might give the WW2 birds and Huey a shot. I was hoping the KA50 would be ok, but I seriously doubt it.

 

 

If anyone is on the fence between 4k and VR for advanced aircraft, please don't make the same mistake I did.

 

Simply put, you have to be doing something wrong or have a particularly weak GPU/CPU to say that it is unplayable.

Admittedly, my PC is top spec and 2080Ti GPU but it is very playable, very smooth with 45 FPS (Smooth motion) and that with most of the options on High.

[Waxer]

Everyone's opinion of this will differ, but to me 45 fps is not particularly smooth. Particularly if that is an average with 1% minimums even lower than that.

[remi]

Simply put, you have to be doing something wrong or have a particularly weak GPU/CPU to say that it is unplayable.

Admittedly, my PC is top spec and 2080Ti GPU but it is very playable, very smooth with 45 FPS (Smooth motion) and that with most of the options on High.

 

9900k @5.0ghz, 32gb ram, 2080ti FE.

 

I get around 100fps on high at 4k on all the maps.

 

I get under 50fps but little environmental or cockpit clarity using the Index in DCS.

 

No problem with X-Plane.

 

And every other VR game I play runs flawlessly at extremely high FPS. :shocking:

 

 

DCS VR performance is terrible, and the visual quality you get for it is embarrassing.

[jojo]

Maybe you’re pushing too much on some settings ?

[Loz]

9900k @5.0ghz, 32gb ram, 2080ti FE.

I get around 100fps on high at 4k on all the maps.

I get under 50fps but little environmental or cockpit clarity using the Index in DCS.

No problem with X-Plane.

And every other VR game I play runs flawlessly at extremely high FPS. :shocking:

DCS VR performance is terrible, and the visual quality you get for it is embarrassing.

 

I too have a 50 inch 4K monitor on which I used to think DCS was the dogs b....ks. But the immersion that you get with VR albeit at obviously a much reduced fidelity more than makes up for that, both in my eyes and most of the other simmers who try it.

End of.

[remi]

Maybe you’re pushing too much on some settings ?

 

PD 1.5

 

Even on the lowest settings, moving the joystick in the cockpit is not fluid motion and there's judder everywhere.

 

Something is obviously messed up with DCS's implementation.

 

Maybe ED needs to do something regarding the canted screens?

[Secoda]

I am only familiar with WMR headsets but many of us found it much more efficient to do the super-sampling outside of DCS in SteamVR so our PD is always set at 1.0 in DCS which is the native resolution of the headset. Then we adjust the resolution in SteamVR under Video in Settings up. This is very clear (like you are sitting there) and the performance I mentioned above. The cockpit movement should be butter smooth. I would be throwing up right away if I encountered the judder you are describing. lol

 

PD 1.5

 

Even on the lowest settings, moving the joystick in the cockpit is not fluid motion and there's judder everywhere.

 

Something is obviously messed up with DCS's implementation.

 

Maybe ED needs to do something regarding the canted screens?

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Secoda

[imacken]

PD 1.5

 

Even on the lowest settings, moving the joystick in the cockpit is not fluid motion and there's judder everywhere.

 

Something is obviously messed up with DCS's implementation.

 

No, something is obviously messed up with your system!

[remi]

No, something is obviously messed up with your system!

 

It's a brand new system with fresh windows install.

[remi]

I am only familiar with WMR headsets but many of us found it much more efficient to do the super-sampling outside of DCS in SteamVR so our PD is always set at 1.0 in DCS which is the native resolution of the headset. Then we adjust the resolution in SteamVR under Video in Settings up. This is very clear (like you are sitting there) and the performance I mentioned above. The cockpit movement should be butter smooth. I would be throwing up right away if I encountered the judder you are describing. lol

 

 

 

 

The head movement is smooth, but actual environment is not (stick, outside world). Strangely, DDIs are smooth in their animations like radar sweep.

[Nahemoth]

Received my index Friday and finally got some solid time in tonight. After getting it set up, which was much less painful than I expected, i found the experience very good. With 150% ss in steam, motion smoothing off @ 90hz, my experience was good. I found the headset comfortable, the audio superb, and compared to my o+, the headset has about the same fov with the knob cranked in to my eye comfortably. The index seems 20% dimmer, 10-15% sharper than the o+, with the reasonable contrast during day flights. Night flights are not so good, with blacks really looking dark gray. In this regard the o+ really out performs. Overall I like it. Much much better than the reverb in my opinion. To me, the o+ tuned correctly is a great value for a VR headset. I will likely continue with the index as I found the aliasing to also be better. With msaa x2 on, I get mostly shimmer free 45fps in Sochi. Dubai is a bit of a crap shoot in FPS. My only mild complaint is that I do get a lot of ghosting with motion smoothing on. It gets better if I turn it off but only slightly. I think that may get corrected with updates. To answer whether if I’d buy it again, I think i would. It’s not wildly better than the o+ but it is better. I think since i plan to play other games than dcs, the spend is likely worth it.

 

Have you tried both index and reverb? Why do you say that the index is much better than the reverb?

 

I'm interested in your opinion...

[Supmua]

PD 2.0 in DCS means 2x resolution on both vertical and horizontal pixels, which is not the same as 200% sampling resolution (much higher).

[Naruto]

The head movement is smooth, but actual environment is not (stick, outside world). Strangely, DDIs are smooth in their animations like radar sweep.

 

Nope its not the Index, its DCS, their VR is really bad with ghosting and judder if the FPS goes too low, It does this on every HMD I ever owned, Reverb, Pimax 5K+, SO+, Rift CV1. ED really need to get DCS VR optimized or say fudge it and switch engines to something else, their EDGE isn't cutting it IMO. This reminds me when LOMAC first came out and the best hardware of the day couldn't run it. Flat screen playing is great now since hardware caught up but VR is not. Yes my DCS account has been here since pretty much day one all these years ago and when UBiSoft forums was the place to hangout.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Naruto

[Supmua]

Valve Index Hands On

 

Valve Index first week impression!

 

Look and feel:

On first appearance, It seems like a very well made device, well designed and exudes the look of an expensive gadget. The outer appearance has more conservative form compared to the Vive Pro, yet not as simplistic looking as the OG Rift. The front cover can be removed to access a hidden USB port for future accessories. The headphones doesn’t touch your ears and functions more like speakers. The device also feels very good to touch (one of the first things I always do with all new toys). The facial pad uses some sort of breathable high tech material rather than cheap foam.

 

Comfort:

This headset is designed to accommodate thinner facial profile as the facial gasket that comes with it is on the narrow side. Eyeglasses can also be a tight fit. I feel very comfortable with it if I wear contact lens, can’t say the same while wearing glasses as the glass frame tends to exert too much pressure on my cheek and nose. Vive Pro remains the most comfortable headset for me as it can easily accommodate all kinds of facial profiles and glasses.

 

Audio:

The Index has the best audio quality out of all headsets that I have tried, by far. Great image separation, decently wide sound stage, very clear mid and high and decent but not boomy bass, and is reasonably loud. It’s not quite audiophile quality but close and very good for regular use. The mic is also the best out there with great non-flat sound quality and lack of distortion.

 

FOV:

The Index has one of the best horizontal FOV (2nd only to PIMAX), I measured 110-115 degree (Vive Pro is around 100 and Rift 90, on a good day), and probably the best vertical FOV out there as well. Part of this is due to canted panels which is something new compared to traditional headsets and also the ability to move the lens very close to the eyes. There is a bit of visible black bar or border when glancing to the side when the lens are very close to the face.

 

Resolution:

1440x1600 for each eye, which is the same as Vive Pro. Due to use of LCD screen with subpixels, it has lower SDE with superior clarity and detail at the expense of reduced contrast, vibrancy, and black levels.

 

Image Quality:

The Index screen produces clear images almost from edge to edge, compared to typical headsets where images become blurry beyond the center area of view. This is very apparent when using web browser or watching movies in full screen. This is probably due to double lens technology which also keeps geometric distortion to the minimum. I would say that this is the first headset that is good enough that I can use for regular web browsing (my Vive Pro is not up to par in this aspect, forget the Rift which has even lower resolution)

 

The stacked lens I believe has its short coming which is mainly glaring. The glare is very noticeable when you have a large bright object against a full black background, and it seems more intense in the periphery especially around the edge of the lens. This may or may not bother gamers too much depending on your level of tolerance.

 

I went to lagom.nl and pulled up LCD reference images and these appears satisfactory on the Index screen. There is no apparent color crush or significant issues with black level or white saturation. The black level is typical of LCD screen which is dark gray and unless you game on an OLED monitor regularly it may not be apparent. I would say only the most picky people will be bothered by this. Shimmering is also much less than OLED screen. This is also present in OLED TV, when you crank up the brightness the white color tone can look unnatural with shimmering effect. I also tested night flying in DCS and it is acceptable, even at the max gamma level of 3.5 I did not notice color banding (note: This is on windows update 1809, there are reports of banding problem with 1903).

 

SDE is there, not bad and different, more like visible individual pixels that are seen when you move your face very close to regular monitor screen. It is more pronounced in bright colored part and not visible in darkened part of the image on screen.

 

Tracking:

This may not be too relevant to DCS players but it is an important part of the system as a whole. The Valve/Steam Lighthouse laser tracking system has the best technology, period. Class 1 (eye-safed) spinning laser emission (not source) is used to flood the room which gets picked up by headset and controllers to allow pinpoint positioning. After proper setup everything remains constantly tracked with great precision which is why it is so good in non-sit down games. Different PCs can also share the same lighthouse system, and only one lighthouse is needed for sit down use. It goes to sleep when not in use, and is reactivated via bluetooth.

 

Index Controller:

This is another novelty in VR gaming. It remains strapped to your hand hence allowing grabbing/throwing/hand opening maneuvers which was not previously possible. There are 80+ sensors including those for individual fingers which was marketed as finger tracking but more like finger sensor to my use since it only senses the proximity of the fingers. Nevertheless, it is the only controller that allows you to flip the bird in VR.

 

The controller has auto-calibration function and will adjust to individual hands through usage. I find that there is a sweet spot in terms of placement in my hand in order to achieve optimal control. For optimal tracking, I find that it needs to be strapped to my hand prior to turning on since it seems to start calibrating right away. There is definitely a learning curve in this regard and I’m still not used to operating it comfortably, especially the system button which seems rather hard to reach with my thumb. Yet, it is easily the best VR controller out there.

 

There also seems to be a problem with the controller analog control which doesn’t always allow you to depress the knob when the position is moved to the periphery (if you have Deltasim’s slew mod, it has similar behavior). This may be a design flaw which is currently being investigated by Valve.

 

Price:

This is rather subjective and also relative, so I won’t elaborate much here in order to minimize flaming. In short, I don’t think it is the device that is made for the mass. If you are looking for the best bang for the bucks this is not the right device for you.

 

Conclusion:

So, this is my first week impression of the device. I found no major issues especially with DCS. Performance is roughly similar to my Vive Pro both of which have the exact same settings for DCS. The image color and contrast is inferior but the clarity especially edge to edge clarity easily trumps that. To simplify, it is like choosing to either watch a 480p movie with vivid popping colors on OLED (Vive Pro) or 720p with lower contrast and saturation on LCD (Index) or none of the above. I would pick the second option. So far, I think the Index is a keeper.

Edited July 2, 2019 by Supmua

[Svsmokey]

Thanks for taking the trouble to write such a comprehensive review .

[Nagilem]

@supmua - spot on review. I have the same experience so far.

 

 

My only minor issue is motion smoothing tends to invoke alot of ghosting issues with fast moving objects. As you said, I think that is DCS rather than Steam. I hope it gets fixed by either future Steam or DCS updates.

 

 

 

All else with the index is really really good.

[Rosebud47]

Does VR zoom work properly with the Index?

[Nagilem]

I tried it with no issues last night that I saw. its not a strong zoom, and I didn't get any big cross eye effect.

 

 

 

What in particular would make it proper vs improper?

[Supmua]

Does VR zoom work properly with the Index?

 

it's still a poorly implemented zoom function compared to 2D zoom (when I use VRzoom the 3D effect is somewhat lost especially when glancing to the side). This is the problem with DCS not the device, but because of the stacked lens used in the Index the geometric distortion in the periphery is reduced (not much though).

Edited July 2, 2019 by Supmua

[Rosebud47]

With Pimax VR zoom is overlapping the images from left and right eye.

 

Guess the issue is not so much depending on the canted display design, but more related to parallel projection, which seems to be standard mode with Index, but not with Pimax.

 

Thanks for testing. Always found VR zoom useful for reading the MFDs in cockpit.

[RealDCSpilot]

Just got my Index today and i'm really impressed. Didn't change anything of my old Vive Pro settings and image clarity got a huge bump just by changing the HMD. The cockpit looks so much sharper now.

 

@remi

 

Something must be terribly wrong on your end.

 

 

@-Voight-

 

VR zoom works perfectly.

[imacken]

Just got my Index today and i'm really impressed. Didn't change anything of my old Vive Pro settings and image clarity got a huge bump just by changing the HMD. The cockpit looks so much sharper now.

 

@remi

 

Something must be terribly wrong on your end.

 

 

@-Voight-

 

VR zoom works perfectly.

 

How are the SDE and sweet spot compared to the VP? Those are the critical things for me.