How HB AIM7M performs compare to ED AIM7

[Fri13]

From Wikipedia (quickest source):

 

It was used to good advantage in the 1991 Gulf War, where it scored many USAF air-to-air kills. Of 44 missiles fired, 30 (68.2%) hit their intended targets resulting in 24/26 (54.5%/59.1%) kills. 19 kills were obtained beyond visual range."

 

The 7M is the improved version. It should not be missing as much as it is.

 

No information about the targets for each? They all could very well be just transport aircrafts without RWR, CM etc...

 

But what comes to ED missile results in his test, they are way too high:

 

ED F15C AIM7F: 8/10 hit, Hit rate = 80%

ED F/A18C AIM7MH (no loft): 9/10 hit, hit rate = 90%

 

Now that should be a fighter, evading the missile, using counter measurements etc. You shouldn't be getting anywhere near 80-90% hit rates.

[Bearfoot]

Hi Relic,

 

I am no expert in missiles combat, not even not in IRL but also in the game.

 

But I do find the AIM-7 pretty decent when launched within parameters. For SP, In the Nevada Constant Peg as well as Normandy DACT Instant Action, for e.g, or even the PG "BFM Lion and Sun". In the second, I have to deliberately choose NOT to use the Sparrow before for the first merge otherwise the battle will almost always be over instantly.

 

The Sparrow can even be pretty good as a WVR/BFM weapon (at least in the game) IF you can get a little bit of separation. Key is to not fire in a situation where you are pulling a lot of G's or the missile has to pull a lot of G's (as when the bandit is going to pass you or is in a tight turn and you are too close.

 

What does not work well is F-pole type stuff where you are turning to keep the target in gimbal limits. You will lose lock because TWS auto is not implemented.

[BodyOrgan]

I'm just going to link this since everyone seems to have forgotten, maybe even HB themselves. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247338

[*Aquila*]

But I do find the AIM-7 pretty decent when launched within parameters.

Which parameters?

 

I'm just going to link this since everyone seems to have forgotten, maybe even HB themselves. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247338

Great! Thanks!

[S. Low]

I'm just going to link this since everyone seems to have forgotten, maybe even HB themselves. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247338

 

Well... would be nice if they'd remember to fix it :)

[Sneak_King18]

i have noticed the problems with the sparrow, recently. lots of missed shots completely, with all other targeting aspects correct( or so it seems from the 14 experience)

 

I have started carrying 6 phoenixes now. I have come to really like them in ACM mode, within 10 miles. fire and forget is great, esp if the other craft is having to keep lock. usually its a missle trade off, but i usually am able to evade that first one pretty easy.

[TLTeo]

Which parameters?

 

 

Following the steering t on the VDI I guess?

[*Aquila*]

Something else I noticed, and which is visible in Tacview: shot at angels 10 at a target closing face to face at the same altitude, the HB AIM-7M reaches +/- Mach 2.14. In the very same conditions, the AIM-7M shot from a Hornet reaches +/- Mach 2.34.

[captain_dalan]

Hi, I tested HB AIM7M performance and compared it to ED AIM7F on F15C and AIM7MH on F18 with a simple test.

 

I set up a single AI fighter, random from SU27, SU33, Mig29, F14, F18 or F15, fly at M1.0 at 10000 feet. The AI fighter was set to CAP mission, evade threat.

 

I set up my own aircraft, 11NM head to head, at M1.0 and at 10000 feet to the AI fighter. It is an F14B with 4xAIM7M or an F15C with 4xAIM7F or an F/A18C with 4xAIM7MH (loft disabled)

 

I maintain air speed and altitude, STT the target, and launch one AIM7 at 9NM, repeat 10 times. The result is:

 

HB F14B AIM7M in normal mode (ACM cover unflipped): 1/10 hit. Hit rate = 10% P-STT(PAL)

HB F14B AIM7M in ACM mode (ACM cover flipped): 0/10 hit. Hit rate = 0% P-STT(PAL)

ED F15C AIM7F: 8/10 hit, Hit rate = 80%

ED F/A18C AIM7MH (no loft): 9/10 hit, hit rate = 90%

 

After launch, I kept lower than the target and maintained lock for the entire time.

 

I wonder why HB AIM7M perform so differently compared to ED AIM7F/MH? I mean no offense just wish to know 1) which one is more reasonable. 2) can we get access to ED ones on F14B just in case when we need them. For example in competitive PVP environment.

 

I'm just going to link this since everyone seems to have forgotten, maybe even HB themselves. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247338

 

i have noticed the problems with the sparrow, recently. lots of missed shots completely, with all other targeting aspects correct( or so it seems from the 14 experience)

 

I have started carrying 6 phoenixes now. I have come to really like them in ACM mode, within 10 miles. fire and forget is great, esp if the other craft is having to keep lock. usually its a missle trade off, but i usually am able to evade that first one pretty easy.

 

While not specifically doing test runs with the AIM-7, my own SP experience with it (it's hard to quantify in MP as you often don't know who you are flying against) is that's extremely dodgy.

 

It did start a while ago, when i started doing more mission oriented flights and not just dogfights and gunzos. I seam to remember engaging with Flanker level bandits quite successfully in the 10NM range in the past. Imagine my surprise when attempting to down an A-50 Mainstay from about 12-14NM and failing. This was quite high as well, 25-35000ft. I was launching at mach 1.2 and the AWACS was closing at over 1000 knots. I kept him over the horizon at all times. Launched at the T. The AWACS made a gentle left hand U turn and the missile just lost all energy and dropped from the sky some 2-3 miles away from the bandit.

 

I thought this was a peculiar one off at the time and attributed it to bad airmanship. But then it happened again.....an again. After about a dozen or so sorties my impressions are that (against AWACS sized targets when fired high and fast):

-shots at around 10NM at hot targets have about 50% chance of hitting, maybe slightly bellow 50

-from 10-5NM the chances improve with decrease in range

-at around 3-5Nm the Sparrow seams to be in the goldilock zone, both against the hot and defensive targets

-around 2NM seams to be the minimum distance for optimal kill chance, unless in pursuit against a very fast cold hostile.

 

So, ATM i'm quite tempted to completely substitute them for Sidewinders. They are essentially WVR missiles as they are right now (against large fighters). I never engaged too much in missile combat in DCS in it's unmodded stated, as i knew the missiles to be WIP, but this Sparrow seams to be having it worse then the most other ammunitions.

 

Something else I noticed, and which is visible in Tacview: shot at angels 10 at a target closing face to face at the same altitude, the HB AIM-7M reaches +/- Mach 2.14. In the very same conditions, the AIM-7M shot from a Hornet reaches +/- Mach 2.34.

 

Yeah, seams to be inferior kinetics wise as well.

[CoBlue]

Also noticed HB's AIM-7M under-performs considerably compared to ED's counterpart. Same with AIM-9M. :(

[MobiSev]

Also noticed HB's AIM-7M under-performs considerably compared to ED's counterpart. Same with AIM-9M. :(

 

I see it more with the 7. The 9M seems to be fine with me...and I actually sometimes prefer to carry 9M's over the 7.

[Airhunter]

Never noticed anything abnormal. Also, make sure to test it in the Hornet vs Tomcat and not in the F-15, since that one is FC3 and dumbed down/simplified.

[S. Low]

Never noticed anything abnormal. Also, make sure to test it in the Hornet vs Tomcat and not in the F-15, since that one is FC3 and dumbed down/simplified.

 

Page 1 and 2 have tacview tests of f14 and f18. Page 3 has a link to tests done with f14 and f15. (Edited)

Edited October 16, 2019 by Relic

[Rabbisaur]

Never noticed anything abnormal. Also, make sure to test it in the Hornet vs Tomcat and not in the F-15, since that one is FC3 and dumbed down/simplified.

 

F18 has the best performing AIM7 in DCS... AIM7M on F14 cannot even match the performance of AIM7F on F15C... Comparing AIM7M on F14 with anything on F18 makes me want to cry... I like F14 so much. But I play competitive PVP exclusively, the missile performance issue on F14 is keeping me away from it when enemy resistance is high...

[Rabbisaur]

I don't know if your test is true or anything, but anecdotally it has seemed to me that the Sparrow for the F-14 is near useless. Just last night I missed a Hind. Fired within range.....

 

Maybe I'm ignorant of missiles, but how does a Sparrow miss a hind? Edit: And just to get out ahead of this response - Yes I maintained lock.

 

Helicopters are very difficult target for radar guided missiles in DCS.

[Rabbisaur]

Okay, phew. I thought I was the only one suffering from this problem.

 

No, you are not. I do a lot of competitive fox1 only combat. I have good experience with all fighters, all missiles against anything in DCS. AIM7M on F14 is under performing comparing to others.

[Rabbisaur]

Works on my machine. I've seen numerous complaints about the 7M over the past few months, but everything seems normal on my end. The only time the missile is trashed is when I lose lock or the bandit kinematically defeats it. Just a rough guess is I probably have similar success to the stats posted above--60 to 70% hits with ~60% kills.

 

The AIM-7 has utterly garbage parameters. You have to be very close versus a manuevering target.

 

Related, does anyone know whether the real missile can reacquire the target if a lock is lost and then relocked?

 

I bet you didn't try HB AIM7M on F14. They are very easily notched and chaffed. You don't need to energy defeat it.

[Rabbisaur]

I usually play on the blue flag PG server, and some hornet drivers have said that they don't bring 120b's, they just take aim-7's instead.

 

Being a a tomcat driver myself I couldn't understand that given what I'd seen of the missiles performance.

 

It's finally dawning on me what's actually going on.

 

I fly a lot on blueflag Cauc server. That is a fox1 only server, try your skill on it and you will understand it better.

[Rabbisaur]

No information about the targets for each? They all could very well be just transport aircrafts without RWR, CM etc...

 

But what comes to ED missile results in his test, they are way too high:

 

ED F15C AIM7F: 8/10 hit, Hit rate = 80%

ED F/A18C AIM7MH (no loft): 9/10 hit, hit rate = 90%

 

Now that should be a fighter, evading the missile, using counter measurements etc. You shouldn't be getting anywhere near 80-90% hit rates.

 

Hi, it highly depends on you fire parameters. I usually can achieve one shot one kill in PVP environment if the opponent didn't give me enough pressure.

[Rabbisaur]

I'm just going to link this since everyone seems to have forgotten, maybe even HB themselves. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=247338

 

That is a nice thread. And I've posted about 10 threads on HB sub forum. HB developers never made a single reply to my threads. I don't know what is going on. But I do see they fixed one bug that I reported earlier without any communication though.

[Ignition]

Does that work in DCS right now? I've never seen a 7 track that way, but I also may not understand the procedure.

 

Sorry I think I read it wrong on the manual.

I did score some hits in flood mode, its easier to shoot the missile but its a little more difficult to maintain the target on the flood zone, but theoretically you can save the shot if you lose him for a moment.

[Katj]

I fly a lot on blueflag Cauc server. That is a fox1 only server, try your skill on it and you will understand it better.

Let me clarify; I couldn't understand why a Hornet pilot would choose an aim-7 over an aim-120b because I had only seen the F-14's aim-7 and it has such poor performance. Now, given that I've learned that the Hornet aim-7 has superior performance, I do understand.

 

I've been meaning to try some bf cauc, the fox-1 environment is appealing.

[Svend_Dellepude]

+1

Sparrow on the F-14 is just deadweight. AFAIK ED updated their code while HB didn't. So HB version is the old ED one before the update.

IMHO there should be only 1 version of the same missile ingame.

[Rabbisaur]

Let me clarify; I couldn't understand why a Hornet pilot would choose an aim-7 over an aim-120b because I had only seen the F-14's aim-7 and it has such poor performance. Now, given that I've learned that the Hornet aim-7 has superior performance, I do understand.

 

I've been meaning to try some bf cauc, the fox-1 environment is appealing.

 

Let me know when you are on bf Cauc, we can team up.

[Airhunter]

+1

Sparrow on the F-14 is just deadweight. AFAIK ED updated their code while HB didn't. So HB version is the old ED one before the update.

IMHO there should be only 1 version of the same missile ingame.

 

I agree. Anything else is nonsense. Hope HB adresses this just like the Phoenix.