WIP shots of the FRS1 SEA harrier

[TLTeo]

 

 

FRS1 cockpit for comparison.

[Schweppes]

Wow the sea Harrier! I wasnt aware of this until now, great news and looking forward to this beauty!

[Harlikwin]

How about the literal moving map

 

Microfilm BABY!

[Extranajero]

Microfilm BABY!

 

 

Standard 35mm film, but I take your point :D

[AeriaGloria]

35mm? Is the glass a fresnel lens then?

[Extranajero]

35mm? Is the glass a fresnel lens then?

 

Very obviously, when you see one close up

[Fri13]

What were the map sizes on those film frames?

I never have investigated for that detail.

 

Like did map boys copy a specific map area from paper map for you as positive film in specific size (square kilometer per frame, like 1:2500000 in 36x24mm frame size) so one frame could show 90x60 km area.

 

Like did the system be able hold multiple frames that got switched between, and aircraft position synced to it on waypoint?

[Extranajero]

This guy has made a Tornado INS map and display work - it'll answer a lot of questions...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8&t

[whiteladder]

What were the map sizes on those film frames?

I never have investigated for that detail.

 

Like did map boys copy a specific map area from paper map for you as positive film in specific size (square kilometer per frame, like 1:2500000 in 36x24mm frame size) so one frame could show 90x60 km area.

 

Like did the system be able hold multiple frames that got switched between, and aircraft position synced to it on waypoint?

 

Edit

Extranajero beat me to it!!

 

 

Have a look at:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EQqfxiGgd8

 

 

Although this is the Tornado Moving map display, the Tornado/Harrier/Jaguar moving map are very similar in operation.

[westr]

air combat sim podcast brought bad news regarding the FRS1. Doesn’t look like it’s happening due to confidentiality of systems. Very sad. Would have been such a nice addition to the falklands map. 

[Avimimus]

On 5/7/2022 at 11:33 AM, westr said:

air combat sim podcast brought bad news regarding the FRS1. Doesn’t look like it’s happening due to confidentiality of systems. Very sad. Would have been such a nice addition to the falklands map. 

Ah, that is sorry to hear. It is so central to it. Any word on if they'll go for a Gr.Mk.III/A instead? The map should have at least one 1980s Harrier variant that was deployed to it in that period!!

It'd be a shame if the only Falkland war flyable aircraft were the Mirage III and the Pucara (although I'm honestly most excited for the Pucara).

[Harlikwin]

5 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Ah, that is sorry to hear. It is so central to it. Any word on if they'll go for a Gr.Mk.III/A instead? The map should have at least one 1980s Harrier variant that was deployed to it in that period!!

It'd be a shame if the only Falkland war flyable aircraft were the Mirage III and the Pucara (although I'm honestly most excited for the Pucara).

Yeah at one point prowler mentioned in a discord that the Gr.3 was a possibility instead. But I'd also guess its pretty far out. Apparently the issue with the Frs.1 is the radar, as they can't get the docs on it.

[westr]

45 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Yeah at one point prowler mentioned in a discord that the Gr.3 was a possibility instead. But I'd also guess its pretty far out. Apparently the issue with the Frs.1 is the radar, as they can't get the docs on it.

Is there not some way they can use their creative licence and make an educated guess. There are some very intelligent developers out there and I’m sure they could get it pretty close to the real thing. (Radar wise) I mean what did we used to do years ago. I remember Microprose Dogfight had the Sea Harrier FRS1 modelled and I guess permissions weren’t a problem, is it just a case that ED won’t allow a simulation of the aircraft without sufficient data to make it dead accurate? The falklands map without the FRS1 the aircraft that claimed what was it over 20 aerial victories, will be a bit of a let down. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by westr

[Northstar98]

13 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Yeah at one point prowler mentioned in a discord that the Gr.3 was a possibility instead. But I'd also guess its pretty far out. Apparently the issue with the Frs.1 is the radar, as they can't get the docs on it.

Yep, unfortunately such as it is with the UK MoD, classifying everything.

The only thing I've seen so far of its RADAR is a very brief clip supposedly of Blue Fox, from an old-ish Harrier documentary I found on YouTube (I've got it downloaded, but it since seems to have been taken off YouTube), I'll get some screenshots:

Spoiler

Search in PPI mode (presumably for air-to-surface attack):

Transitioning to track:

Track:

In "Modern Fighting Aircraft Harrier" it describes the RADAR as having the following modes:

• Search, with either single scan or multi-bar:
  • B-scope
  • PPI
• Attack, supporting intercept and lead/pursuit or chase.
• HUD-cued weapon aiming for air-to-surface attack
• Boresight/air-to-ground ranging
• Interrogation

As for the rest? We only know that it's I band, and is pulse-only (likely no LDSD capability).

Owing to the small size of the antenna, I'd say it's reasonable that its range is probably quite low.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Northstar98

[Harlikwin]

18 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Yep, unfortunately such as it is with the UK MoD, classifying everything.

The only thing I've seen so far of its RADAR is a very brief clip supposedly of Blue Fox, from an old-ish Harrier documentary I found on YouTube (I've got it downloaded, but it since seems to have been taken off YouTube), I'll get some screenshots:

  Reveal hidden contents

Search in PPI mode (presumably for air-to-surface attack):

Transitioning to track:

Track:

In "Modern Fighting Aircraft Harrier" it describes the RADAR as having the following modes:

• Search, with either single scan or multi-bar:
  • B-scope
  • PPI
• Attack, supporting intercept and lead/pursuit or chase.
• HUD-cued weapon aiming for air-to-surface attack
• Boresight/air-to-ground ranging
• Interrogation

As for the rest? We only know that it's I band, and is pulse-only (likely no LDSD capability).

Owing to the small size of the antenna, I'd say it's reasonable that its range is probably quite low.

 

Yeah, all probably correct, but its not really enough to build much of model on. Honestly if there were only tac man level descriptions of the modes that would likely be enough plus some "janes" numbers for range. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Harlikwin

[rkk01]

According to the podcast referenced above ^^
The radar is still classified as it is the grandfather of the Typhoon radar (ok, ok, the Raz guy calls Blue Vixen not Blue Fox… but either way refs apparently aren’t available)

BUT on the other hand, TG / HB are modelling the Typhoon anyway Do the German and British Typhoons carry different sensors???

If the Typhoon radar can be / is being modelled, then Raz need to go for a coffee, quick like

 

I do like the idea of a GR.3 as a fallback, but it’s a pretty poor second to the FRS.1

 

oh, and to all the folks not clear on the SHAR being unique compared to the other Harrier versions - go look up it’s A2A combat stats

Edited May 21, 2022 by rkk01

[TLTeo]

20 minutes ago, rkk01 said:

Do the German and British Typhoons carry different sensors???

Yes but the radar is the same. TG/HB have a full deal with the Typhoon consortium though, RB have nothing like it in place with the British MoD, hence the lack of documentation.

And tbh, having all aspect AIM-9s against opponents with only rear-aspect missiles operating at the limit of their range did far more to make the FRS1 successful in the Falklands than a mediocre search radar ever did (as you said, the Blue Fox is not exactly the Blue Vixen). The GR.3 can stand in perfectly well for it imo.

[Coxy_99]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:17 PM, westr said:

Is there not some way they can use their creative licence and make an educated guess.

The community is already complaining about what realism is and is not, And would cause alot of crying that it should and should not be or do. Im sure there are some good modders out there tho.

 

 

[rkk01]

27 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

Yes but the radar is the same. TG/HB have a full deal with the Typhoon consortium though, RB have nothing like it in place with the British MoD, hence the lack of documentation.

And tbh, having all aspect AIM-9s against opponents with only rear-aspect missiles operating at the limit of their range did far more to make the FRS1 successful in the Falklands than a mediocre search radar ever did (as you said, the Blue Fox is not exactly the Blue Vixen). The GR.3 can stand in perfectly well for it imo.

Based on what I’ve previously read I can’t see that the GR.3 would make a viable FRS.1 stand in on any level (dedicated A2G role, no radar)

particularly for the Falklands conflict, the FRS.1’s role was fleet defence first and foremost. Yes, the US provision of the 9L was key to the combat record, but if you read Sharkey Ward’s account, the Blue Fox was an asset for the Invincible’s 801 squadron at the very least

 

[Mogster]

With Blue Fox it seems we are very much talking about radar being used as a basic search tool aren’t we?  No advanced targeting or involvement in weapons employment. Quite similar to WW2 other than the fact after closing the aircraft has IR missiles to attack with.

Just so people understand what’s available, or not…

Edited June 11, 2022 by Mogster

[rkk01]

21 hours ago, Mogster said:

With Blue Fox it seems we are very much talking about radar being used as a basic search tool aren’t we?  No advanced targeting or involvement in weapons employment. Quite similar to WW2 other than the fact after closing the aircraft has IR missiles to attack with.

Just so people understand what’s available, or not…

 

Reading Harrier 809 at the mo - provides a better insight into the comparative capabilities of the FRS.1 and GR.3, and their crews, compared to the Shar pilot memoirs.

Blue Fox as a search radar to aid intercept - yes, with FC from the ships…

… but also providing gunsight HUD reticle / aim point, which the GR.3 didn’t have (and that the RAF crews in Shars weren’t as familiar with???)

[Harlikwin]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:58 AM, Mogster said:

With Blue Fox it seems we are very much talking about radar being used as a basic search tool aren’t we?  No advanced targeting or involvement in weapons employment. Quite similar to WW2 other than the fact after closing the aircraft has IR missiles to attack with.

Just so people understand what’s available, or not…

 

It also had surface search/attack modes. Also, I assume it might have had some way of doing basic slant ranging of ground targets for things like CCIP deliveries. OR maybe not. 

[Northstar98]

On 6/12/2022 at 6:42 PM, Harlikwin said:

It also had surface search/attack modes. Also, I assume it might have had some way of doing basic slant ranging of ground targets for things like CCIP deliveries. OR maybe not. 

Air-to-ground ranging is in the book I referenced in my above post.

[YoYo]

Few years.

[Silver_Dragon]

I have some info about FSR.1 on South Atlantic War 3 (SAW3) edition (The Argentine and British aircraft are listed in their configuration at the start of the Falklands/Malvinas campaign in April 1982.):

Sea Harrier FRS.1 Fighter
Man Rtng: 3.5/1.5 Damage Value: 19
Size/Signature: Small/Small Bombsight: Ballistic
Counterm: None Inflight Refuel: P
Sensors: Blue Fox radar, 1st Gen RWR.

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 450 640 --
Med: 450 583 --
High: 450 516 --
Ceiling: 15600 meters Engine Type: TF
Cruise Range: 525 nmi Int Fuel: 2360 kg
Additional Fuel Fuel Wt. Range Add.
100 IGal drop tank 370 kg 115 nmi
190 IGal drop tank 700 kg 220 nmi
330 IGal drop tank 1215 kg 385 nmi

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 3620/2270 kg
Off Guns: 2 Aden 30mm Mk5 (3.0)
• 2 100 IGal or 2 190 IGal (Aug 82) drop tanks, and either:
• 2 AIM-9G Sidewinder
• 3 Mk1/2 500 lb bombs
• 2 Matra No 7 2in rocket pods (8 Apr 82)
• 2 Lepus illumination flares (9 Apr 82, use 6.1 inch under 5.8.7)
• 2 AIM-9L Sidewinder (20 Apr 82)
• 3 BL755 bombs (1982)
• 4 AIM-9L (Aug 82)
• 1 WE.177A, 1 Mk13/18 bomb, 2 AIM-9G or 2 AIM-9L
• 3 Mk13 1000 lb bombs, 2 AIM-9G or AIM-9L
• 3 BL755 bombs, 2 AIM-9L (1982)

Remarks: In Svc: Oct 80 - Mar 95
V/STOL. 30mm gun pods are fixed and cannot be removed. Payloads are for CTO/VTO. Due to complexity all pilots are Veteran or Elite. In VTOL mode (operating from helicopter pad, etc) total internal fuel and external weapons load is 3376 kg - reduce range accordingly. Cannot drop subsonic 330 IGal ferry tanks inflight - must be removed on ground. Initially delivered without radar, all fitted by 1982. Fitted with starboard Low altitude recon camera.
• 1982: Fitted with BL.755, AIM-9L vice AIM-9G (2 Apr) - 100 AIM-9L available, ALE-40 (Apr, Hermes a/c only) as 2nd Gen IR D, see 7.4 Fitted to loft bomb from radar offset point (treat as Manual bombsight for loft attacks). 20 Sea Harrier operational (12 Hermes w/14 pilots, 8 Invincible w/12 pilots) plus 4 trials, 7 reserve. One week later 8 additional sent south on Atlantic Conveyor.
• 14 May 82: Invincible a/c carry one shot chaff in airbrakes fully opened, also one shot the same increment bombs are dropped. Treat as 1st generation radar decoys.
• Aug 82: 8 Sea Harrier deploy to Falklands on Illustrious. Equipped with dual Sidewinder and 190 IGal drop tanks.

Air Radars:
Country / Name / Function / Geneneration / Detection Distance (NM): Large / Medium / Small / VSmall / Stealthy Targets / Engagement Arc / IOC / Remarks
UK / Blue Fox / AI (Air Intercept) / Gen 3 / 40 / 28 / 20 / 7.9 / 2.4 / 1 / SS (Surface Mode) 155 / 87 / 50 / 28 / 15 / 60° / 1981 /

Waiting to the new White Ensing anexx will be release on a future to complete data.