Guess what! Easy AAR!

[PL_Harpoon]

I’m not necessarily against the feature but I don’t understand why it’s needed.

 

 

Just a quick example off the top of my head:

 

 

Let's say you enjoy DCS but you only have a low-end stick and you can only play for several hours on weekends. You're also a member of a squad and they've set up a cool mission with AAR.

 

Now, without easy AAR you're excluded from the flight.

 

It's a lose-lose situation: you lose because you can't enjoy the mission, your squad loses because they have 1 less person to fly with.

 

 

Literally no one benefits from not having such a feature.

[MisterVince]

So you have scarce time and want to waste it on watching how the fuel flows... ok...

 

People with scarce time can choose for themselves how they want to spend it. :smilewink:

 

Your sarcasm makes me think that you do not understand why some people would need this so I will use and example to help you with it:

Some people cannot train a lot to perform such complex manouvers as an AAR or a perfect CASE 1 recovery, which obviously require some (or a lot!) of practice. I am not even taking stick quality into account here...

 

But still they know how to drop bombs because it is easy to do, still following me ?

 

Imagine they want to fly a 3h mission every now and then, just to enjoy a long navigation (after all, a joy in DCS is to look out of the window and enjoy the marvellous landscape isn't it ?) and perform a strike on some targets.

Well they can't if they are not able to AAR. It is just as simple as that.

[randomTOTEN]

I personaly think it would be nice so we dont have to drop the "nuggets" off from cool long missions in our squad...

Some people just fly casual missions with friends/family were each participant has different skill and hardware, some being able to AAR and others not. Therefore having such an "auto refuel" thing would enable the whole team to perform the same mission despite having different skill.

You're also a member of a squad and they've set up a cool mission with AAR.

 

Now, without easy AAR you're excluded from the flight.

I don't run a squadron, and I don't host MP servers... so maybe you guys can help enlighten me. Your new and unskilled users have the ability to enable Unlimited fuel, and I know servers have the ability to restrict this feature. Is it possible to run a server which allows client preferences to be respected? Users with limited fuel will run out of gas, while unlimited fuel uses won't?

Well they can't if they are not able to AAR. It is just as simple as that.

You didn't mention MP here, so the answer obviously is Unlimited Fuel for you. I cannot fathom why people are so against that.. it's already in DCS.

[Falby]

I can't understand the objections to this as an option. No-one who uses DCS is actually flying, dropping bombs or shooting down enemy planes, we're all just pretending.

An easy AAR option for those who(for whatever reason) cannot do it can pretend also. And if that increases their enjoyment surely that is a good thing. Maybe even encourage them to buy more content which is good for ED and therefore also good for all of us.

[wowbagger]

I've never understood why so many DCS players want to limit the options of others, and why they are so very vocal about it. The more people playing, the more money to develop modules and maps. Since everyone can choose to play the way they want and servers can set their own rules.... what's the point? You only harm your own prospects. Makes zero sense.

[MisterVince]

You didn't mention MP here, so the answer obviously is Unlimited Fuel for you. I cannot fathom why people are so against that.. it's already in DCS.

 

Unlimited fuel is not the same, because you do not need external fuel tanks with unlimited fuel whereas you need them for a long mission with AAR. :)

 

I don't like unlimited fuel and never use it because it ruins the immersion, but I would be fine using an easy AAR.

 

If it were a feature that can be disbaled in the mission editor, it should not bother anyone who does not wish to use it.

[speed-of-heat]

I'm not disagreeing with you because its your preference, but, what version of "easy refueling" did you envision that would not similarly ruin you immersion... flying alongside the tanker for 30 seconds and getting magically refueled, the plane automatically guides to the basket?

 

Please understand i support the idea, but i struggle with it not breaking immersion ?

[wowbagger]

I think it's a pretty good idea. After you connect to the basket you wouldn't have to worry about flying perfect formation until the the tanks are full. Not a bad idea for those who aren't professional fighter/attack pilots, can't feel the non-existent G-forces, have a tiny joystick (phrasing!) sitting unergonimically on their desktop, or who realize it's just a game and want to have fun with it.

[Fri13]

If it were a feature that can be disbaled in the mission editor, it should not bother anyone who does not wish to use it.

 

Exactly. We should have three main modes:

 

GAME mode

Current mode

HARD CORE mode

 

 

Be it a set of rules that one can enable either in game settings or enforce On/Off in mission editor. This so that everyone can get more likely what they want.

 

Those who want fun easy gaming, they can go to game mode that changes flight dynamics even (first and last time I tried it was with BS2 and it made that you couldn't roll helicopter around by any means IIRC). Nothing shameful for that if someone wants to fly with joypad or want to enable "training wheels" for a kid etc.

 

Then is the current one, you get nice good mixture of different rules to enable but realistic flight modeling, so you can enable easy radio, easy air refueling, quick 2 min rearming, laser code changes in the aircraft and such.

 

And then there is a hard core version, that is far more limiting by the virtual pilot careers, no easy radios, no kneeboards with magical locations, no unlimited ammo, fuel, laser codes set on ground etc etc.

 

 

It would allow players play as they like, so if someone wants to fly even like an AI can, it is possible for them. But don't mix these modes.

[Fri13]

I think it's a pretty good idea. After you connect to the basket you wouldn't have to worry about flying perfect formation until the the tanks are full.

 

Until you disconnect.... Meaning you could even go to boil some water for your tea if so wanted and you stay connected to tanker meanwhile.

 

Having an assisted approach (funnel shaped) where your speed and your aircraft moves easily to connect wouldn't be bad thing. Just so that there is some kind limitation for your speed scale etc, so one can't just fly at Mach 1.8 on the hose and get sucked to it like nothing. But like +/- 30 km/h speed difference and +/- 3-5 degree pitch rate per second.

 

I could think that such a connection rate could be possible for most, so your aircraft is nicely "pushed" in hose when inside those limits.

 

 

So more accurate explanation.

 

If the tanker flies at 650 km/h and you fly at 670 km/h, then when you approach the "Easy AAR funnel" your aircraft automatically gets smoothly slowed down to proper 650 km/h speed without you touching the throttle. But if you push throttle to higher that would lead your speed change to 701 km/h, then you would be "separated" and your speed raises like you would have throttled it.

 

And as long your aircraft is inside the funnel and you keep good nice steady flying with it so you do not do quick attitude changes, then automatically your aircraft is in "tractor beam" that will move you inside the funnel limits toward the basket and connect you.

 

This mode would help a lot of multiplayer on "fun servers" where you could just approach the aircraft smoothly, get to be pulled in and connected. And then you stay connected until you disconnect (or you give some quick large input changes).

 

Would that be a per tanker mode, or per client/unit mode?

Meaning that if specific tanker is set to "easy mode" then all clients/players could easily connect to it, but there can be a "manual connection" tankers for those too who want to do it so?

Or should it be per aircraft mode, that in mission editor specific aircrafts are set to be in "easy refueling" mode so when they approach tankers then they go easily in, but others not?

 

I can see it to be very much fun for flying with some people who finds it challenge to fly in formation and do the connection etc. And you as you can do it easily or make it look "effortless", they don't need to get frustrated if they can't get the connection made even, even less to stay in formation.

 

And in such missions they can laugh their asses off when you fail, while they have easy refueling going on...

Edited June 16, 2020 by Fri13

[PL_Harpoon]

Please understand i support the idea, but i struggle with it not breaking immersion ?

 

 

There are many options, for ex. something like a rudder assist, that would dampen your inputs or perform small adjustments. You'd still feel like it's you doing the job and could "brake" the assist by rapid movements (sort of like braking the autopilot in the Hornet).

[MisterVince]

I'm not disagreeing with you because its your preference, but, what version of "easy refueling" did you envision that would not similarly ruin you immersion... flying alongside the tanker for 30 seconds and getting magically refueled, the plane automatically guides to the basket?

 

Please understand i support the idea, but i struggle with it not breaking immersion ?

 

I understand. I must admit it is not totally clear in my head either. Perhaps OP had a precise thought about it. I would imagine the basket following your probe when you come close to it. It worked a bit like this in old Lock On.

 

For me, it does not break the immersion that much, but I think it is very personnal and therefore I could not give you some objectiv argument. Perhaps it is due to me having a low-quality stick. If I had a better stick I would gladly train in order to master it.

 

 

You can't mount drop tanks when you enable unlimited fuel? So you want to force yourself to rely on drop tanks, but you don't want to force yourself to accomplish AAR?

 

Why do you guys hate AAR so much? Quite frankly it's fun.

 

Yes that's it. I only speak for myself here, but maybe others have a similar reason for wanting such a feature.

I do not hate AAR, but I would like it to be easier mostly because of my stick: it is very imprecise, and has large deadzones on the center. I can cope with it by using curves, but still it is difficult to perform precise maneuvers. Sometimes I use the trim on my stick to do small corrections, but one of the trim buttons does not work : I can trim roll left but not right, so...

Futhermore, I use the throttle integrated to my stick with is also very imprecise: if I only push slightly forward the airplanes speeds too rapidly.

 

Another reason would be to play long missions with my brother, who is a casual player and just does not want to train much. However we like doing long flights together, so an easy AAR mode would help us a lot doing longer missions. (Do not get me wrong, I do not want ED to make AAR easier, but just have an option to make it easier for players who which it so.)

 

 

These are my personal reasons, and in fact I suppose most people who wish for such a feature have similar reasons: basically bad stick or no time or no wish to train.

[MisterVince]

Exactly. We should have three main modes:

 

GAME mode

Current mode

HARD CORE mode

 

[...]

 

It would allow players play as they like, so if someone wants to fly even like an AI can, it is possible for them. But don't mix these modes.

 

I totally disagree with that. The purpose of this topic is to discuss a solution for players who do not want all the difficulty of AAR. It does not mean they do not want the rest to be as realistic as possible !

[speed-of-heat]

I can definitely get behind the idea from a hw point of view, when my Warthog Stick broke at the gimbal i was fortunate enough to be able to replace it, but i had use my old stick for a few days and it was like flying on a keyboard by comparison... and i realise not everyone can afford or is willing to spend silly money on hardware.

 

So for that reason alone i'd +1 this thread

[Vertigo72]

but, what version of "easy refueling" did you envision that would not similarly ruin you immersion... ?

 

An autopilot that does the AAR? I mean, I have used ACLS on my F14, its a similar cheat, even if real pilots could also use it. And thinking about it its actually strange that AFAIK, they never made AAR autopilot, or did they? Shouldnt be too hard and could potentially save a tired pilot.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Vertigo72

[draconus]

I am not against either - I respect wishlist. Just can't understand arguments thrown to defend it. 3h long mission for someone with scarce time? Sounds like plenty. Bombing is easy but AAR not? I bet someone trained a lot bombing and not much AAR. Unlimited fuel kills immersion but easy AAR not? I tried really hard and failed to get the idea.

Don't you guys have a need to actually achieve something than buy into it? Why chosing DCS at all? Mind you there are players, me included, that want it actually harder - more realistic - with proper hose physics, collision model and ability to destroy the basket/boom, etc. And I even can't AAR from a boom myself yet.

[randomTOTEN]

Meaning that if specific tanker is set to "easy mode" then all clients/players could easily connect to it, but there can be a "manual connection" tankers for those too who want to do it so?

Or should it be per aircraft mode, that in mission editor specific aircrafts are set to be in "easy refueling" mode so when they approach tankers then they go easily in, but others not?

While I don't agree with the "funnel" idea (too much work for devs), this is a great idea. It could be added as a "perform command" or "set condition" option. The option could then be narrowed down to individual units.

Instead of the funnel, how about just forcing the play to stabilize the aircraft in pre-contact position... just as is currently required with full realism AAR? That solves closure and position problems. Then when the tanker clears contact, AI autopilot takes over. The jet is returned to the pre-contact position by the AI after refueling is complete (or aborted via radio option), and they can resume their mission. It is certainly possible.

[randomTOTEN]

Mind you there are players, me included, that want it actually harder - more realistic - with proper hose physics, collision model and ability to destroy the basket/boom, etc. And I even can't AAR from a boom myself yet.

Yes!

Many of us want to up the realism even more!!! :lol:

[SharpeXB]

AAR is a matter of practice. Unless your stick is broken that’s not the source of the problem. To go through the learning curve took me weeks. But once you get it, you’ve got it.

 

One day after a sweat soaked futile hour with a death grip on my stick... I was driving and realized how subconsciously I was able to “fly formation” behind the tanker (uh car) in front of me. How is this possible?! My foot makes unconscious pressure on the gas pedal and my hands on the wheel yet I’m just unaware of what they’re doing.

 

So like that. Keep it up until this is all just subconscious.

[stormrider]

I've never understood why so many DCS players want to limit the options of others, and why they are so very vocal about it. The more people playing, the more money to develop modules and maps. Since everyone can choose to play the way they want and servers can set their own rules.... what's the point? You only harm your own prospects. Makes zero sense.

+1

 

 

And they keep trying very hard to invent new reasons why, until they "win" by exhaustion.

[stormrider]

Yes!

Many of us want to up the realism even more!!! :lol:

 

 

Very good point!

 

 

 

 

Except its just simply stupid if you're trying to force it upon others.

[Fri13]

I totally disagree with that. The purpose of this topic is to discuss a solution for players who do not want all the difficulty of AAR. It does not mean they do not want the rest to be as realistic as possible !

 

And if you read my post, it is nothing like you think.

 

I only cover everything, as we do have a game mode in DCS and it needs to be covered as well, as current one allowing pick individual easiness features like radio, fuel, weapons or refueling, as well those who want full realism as much as possible.

[Fri13]

While I don't agree with the "funnel" idea (too much work for devs), this is a great idea. It could be added as a "perform command" or "set condition" option. The option could then be narrowed down to individual units.

Instead of the funnel, how about just forcing the play to stabilize the aircraft in pre-contact position... just as is currently required with full realism AAR? That solves closure and position problems. Then when the tanker clears contact, AI autopilot takes over. The jet is returned to the pre-contact position by the AI after refueling is complete (or aborted via radio option), and they can resume their mission. It is certainly possible.

 

You are agreeing with the same thing....

 

The funnel is invisible area where "autopilot" takes over and flies fighter in the basket. You need to have clearance to approach and connect etc before you get automation, so you can't fly silently there and back, but follow all other procedures to get to point that easy tanker mode hats activated.

[Aiyarree]

Hi,

have not posted too often here. But this is triggering me.

A few days ago i AARed for the first time. It took me about 1.5 fuel tanks... no idea how many hours... in two sessions to figure it out... more or less. I have no idea if this is good, bad or average. But what i learned is - forget curves and forget spring tension. Especial curves are a unpredictable crutch that drove me crazy after fife minutes.

 

Use a stick extension.

 

If you look down the cockpit of your fancy... Hog/Hornet/Harrier... you will notice that the stick is... what... half a meter long? All to the bottom of your aircraft. And yip. Even in your mighty-morphing-fly-by-wire-hornet. So using an extension and/or axis zoom is nothing what i would call cheating. It is simple part of the simulation.

 

After all i am sitting now behind the equivalent of a more than 30cm long stick. And it feels quiet natural, challenging - yes - but absolutely doable. So doing something that is maned to be done with the precision of a half-meter long stick with one only 2 cm... well. Yea. Forget it. Of course it is crazy difficult - if possible at all. It was never thought this way

 

So do not come with a knive to a fire fight.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Aiyarree

[Vertigo72]

In the world of radio controlled drones and planes, where we control craft that may literally be >10x as responsive and have roll rates in the many 1000s of degrees per second, and control that with a tiny little stick of a few cm, we almost universally use rates. Just a switch that controls how much control authority a given amount of stick movement gives. So we set it to high to do our crazy aerobatics, but setting it medium or low we still have sufficient precision when we come in to land or want to do formation flying or "flying scale" as we call it (make it look like the real aircraft scaled down, hard to do when a few mm stick travel results in faster roll rate than the real plane could even do).

 

Curves are also used, but perhaps ironically, I mostly use them to get a linear response so a given amount of stick travel corresponds to a constant increase in roll or pitch rotation speed, regardless if its near the center or at the edges. On most RC planes you dont get that without curves due the geometry of the servos and control rods.

 

Anyway, not sure if "rates" that is something we can replicate on our PC sims. But that might not be a bad option to have. Especially for those with less than perfect joysticks.

 

BTW, and as an aside. I still find it remarkable how even cheap RC transmitters have such high precision sticks and you need to sell your first born to get something similar on PC. Ive actually hooked up my RC transmitter to my PC for some games, including racing drone simulators where it obviously makes complete sense. My MS FFB2 may not be the best stick in the world, its also not the worst and is not even close to being as smooth, responsive and accurate as my RC controller.

Edited June 17, 2020 by Vertigo72