Razbam/ED please clarify - Is the Harrier out of EA and consequently complete?

[Expert]

This discussion lasts now for three days.

Beside the positive hands on from Nineline, Bignewy and tea_cypher, is there any (official) feedback from Razbam?

It has a strange feeling that the responsible person(s) are still acting like a submarine. Three days should be more then enough to give a statement.

Haven't they come to comment yet? incredible!

[notproplayer3]

http://www.worldwealthcalculator.org/

 

:lol: what lol, I am just saying that paying 70 for a digital thing is a lot for me right now and I don't want to waste it on some bad module, interesting stats though...

P.S I do not make the amount you said

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all,

 

keep the feedback civil and mature, posts calling people names will get deleted.

 

thanks

[Expert]

It’s out of early access. Good.

The product DOES NOT meet the official product description, that is what I based my buying decision on.

So ED and Razbam are officially stating that they HAVE NOT MET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PRODUCT they sold.

I want my money back. I could care less about product sustainment or whatever they decide to name it.

The product is not complete and doesn’t match the description.

Is it a scam?

If not, refund.

I am serious.

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, digital content should be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.

Finally someone who acts as a real buyer and not like who says to buy the EA to "support", "buy to support" do you understand what I mean?

You should seriously think about suing for a refund.

....The module is just sitting there un-installed collecting dust. It's not worth the annoyance to re-install and try using it with all the issues (bugs + missing items). At this point I'll just be using the AV-8B as target practice on the range LOL...

:lol:

[key_stroked]

Clearly if Razbam can't take 2 minutes out of a 24 hour day to come here to their official forums and make a statement to their customers over the last 72 hours, they have no intention of doing so and don't care about their PR image at this stage.

 

Just stop with the "we're communicating, please be patient" excuse for Razbam's PR absence. Stop it. We live in an age where you can send a text message or post a forum message in less time then it takes to write an actual letter.

 

Razbam still has forum access here, do they not? Is there some ED ban preventing them from logging in here and talking to us? I don't think there is. They just continually sit in their Discord and hide there where they can control the narrative and remove any criticism they don't like.

 

Bignewy & Nineline, I know you both are helping to bridge this gap between us and Razbam, but I would bet money that both of you have admitted to yourselves that the way Razbam is handling this situation is completely fubar and unprofessional.

 

The Harrier is not a finished product. That is undeniable, and frankly not worth arguing against. Saying it's feature-complete is simply false. A product out of early access is supposed to be feature-complete, with minimal bugs and the majority of its systems modeled and functionally working, along with full documentation (a complete manual).

It's not. So please....STOP calling it feature-complete. Stop telling us it's out of early access. Continuing to do so will just erode your own relationship you have with me as a DCS customer.

 

As ED hosts Razbam's product in your own store and as a part of your platform, they reflect on you. Going along with what they're telling you, that this is a feature-complete product, and regurgitating that in THEIR forums is insulting.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Halcyon

[FoxOne007]

It’s out of early access. Good.

The product DOES NOT meet the official product description, that is what I based my buying decision on.

 

So ED and Razbam are officially stating that they HAVE NOT MET THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE PRODUCT they sold.

I want my money back. I could care less about product sustainment or whatever they decide to name it.

The product is not complete and doesn’t match the description.

Is it a scam?

If not, refund.

 

I am serious.

 

Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, digital content should be of a satisfactory quality, fit for purpose and as described.

 

I would really consider to think again if ED will approve a roll out of the EA.

Otherwise I'm seeing it the same as bkthunder.

 

Enoigh talk over all the years, its no time for some action.

 

 

This is though to hear bu well you're out of luck then.... ED already said they aren't refunding, plus you have all probably owned the module for the better part of the last 3 years with probably more than 50-100 hours flight time.... so idk why you think that would still warrant you a refund. Steam doesn't refund you games either if you have played them more than an X amount hours even if you are really unhappy with them or they become crappy after a certain amount of updates so... Additionally Hawk owners like myself didn't get a refund either when VEAO decided to leave... so....

[marcoscosta]

If you make $33,500 a year, you are among the richest 5% in the world.

 

There are 6.2 billion people less wealthy than you.

 

 

Well, 33,500 is a lot of money in development countries.

Edited September 9, 2020 by marcoscosta

[SGT Coyle]

 

 

 

Just what I thought. We're going to have to sift through three years of gripes, and go through it all over again. Razbam has this list. =Decoy= reported it. It was put on their Bug Tracker and listed status as working on it for 2 years. Ask them about this. If they claim not to have it, THEY ARE LYING!!!

Why are we going through this? Because ED doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to hold Razbams feet to the fire. Their future license deals should be canceled!!

Edited September 9, 2020 by SGT Coyle

[NineLine]

Hey SGT Coyle, once again, I am asking you to show a little patience while we work on this, also that quoted message, Zeus went on to say that they are not ignoring the community bug reports.

 

Anyways, I would ask everyone to calm down, once again, while we work on all this. Thanks.

[stormrider]

Well, 33,500 is a lot of money in development countries.

 

 

Even in developed countries like the UK. Earning £30k+ puts you already in a very nice position, even in London.

[SGT Coyle]

Hey NineLine, I've been patient as, you know, and as helpfull as I can be. If you guys want to pick up their slack, then do it. Don't go into forums that you've ignored for two years and expect the community to clean up the mess they created.

 

 

I want that thread reopened. I will clean up the OP, but I will not breakout every one of those gripes, just to have tea_cipher ask for a track file or a video for key binding. Your expectations thrust upon the community is outrageous.

 

 

 

p.s.

Can expect any answers to the questions I put forth?

[Cornelius]

[...]

It's not. So please....STOP calling it feature-complete. Stop telling us it's out of early access. Continuing to do so will just erode your own relationship you have with me as a DCS customer.

 

As ED hosts Razbam's product in your own store and as a part of your platform, they reflect on you. Going along with what they're telling you, that this is a feature-complete product, and regurgitating that in THEIR forums is insulting.

 

[...]

Why are we going through this? Because ED doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to hold Razbams feet to the fire. Their future license deals should be canceled!!

 

[...] Even more bad to see that ED is this now also backing.

 

 

I must say, that I see ED now through different eyes because of how they react here. It seems that they are trying to ride this whole debacle out.

[NineLine]

I must say, that I see ED now through different eyes because of how they react here. It seems that they are trying to ride this whole debacle out.

 

Please comment to what you know, I have spent the last day and a half trying to get caught up, and work on these issues. We are hardly riding it out. Remember that me and BN also have our own stuff to deal with as well, so we are balancing all that with this as well. If that is not good enough, and you cant give us the time, then fine, but please don't make up things.

 

Guys, coming here calling RAZBAM or ED scammers, or making stuff up isn't doing anything but to muddy this thread and make things more difficult to work through.

[OPEC]

Finally someone who acts as a real buyer and not like who says to buy the EA to "support", "buy to support" do you understand what I mean?

You should seriously think about suing for a refund.

 

Not this topic again.

 

Gesendet von meinem SM-N975F mit Tapatalk

[viper2097]

Guys, coming here calling RAZBAM or ED scammers, or making stuff up isn't doing anything but to muddy this thread and make things more difficult to work through.

 

You must admit - if you keep calling it feature complete, clearly say that it won't be rolled back to EA and deleting all discussion about the legal part of that - it won't help to stop that discussions.

[Hawkeye_UK]

We have said we are working on communication here on the forum, you will need to be patient.

 

For now RAZBAM have been communicating on Discord.

 

Thanks

 

This is one of the primary causes of concern the fact they hide behind their own social media channels.

 

How, and Bignewy i do not want you to answer this as it's putting you in a bad position so please don't but i will make the point that it should come from someone such as Kate, given the fall out from this, clarify how they tolerate this level of customer server and after sales from one of their sub contractors. This problem as i have stated is only going to grow and if its a case of ED managing the forums and they will only work with bugs reported from an ED employee how is this keeping the principles of EA. I often see suggested that EA is not for customer re no patience etc, on which on many instances i agree, but in this context, with Razbam i have come to conclude EA is not for them if they cannot work with constructive direction and feedback.

 

The question i need answered is how do people, which tend to fall into the well experienced category of the Harrier/flight sims, that have raised constructive questions or asked for clarification on their discord, only to find themselves removed and banned follow the communication from a company they have purchased from that they now cannot directly contact or follow updates and Razbam fail to answer? It's become farcical.

 

The senior management team from Razbam have been on in the last few days i know that because they clicked on my profile, yet commenting is beneath them.

 

I can tolerate most things, but sheer ignorance, which is what this is i cannot. I have been patient with Razbam, but enough is enough and saying to paying customers this is nothing but a sh*t storm in a glass of water, i'm struggling to understand how ED would long term want to continue this partnership given the apparent negative PR its now bringing to your brand. Wait for this to hit youtube (i've seen some brief content this afternoon but not had chance to digest) or start circulating on steam, which it will no doubt.

 

Its a busy time for flight sim's can you imagine new customers reading this on steam. This is not just about EA, its about Razbam's customer liaison and interaction, or rather lack of it. You will have seen if working through the bug forum the lack of replies is nothing short of a disgrace, or its added to the list by Decoy yet not on their bug tracker (now vanished since i referenced it) and not rectified. ED need to be seen to be taking a very firm stance on this one, not letting or defending Razbam's poor behaviour and attitude which is whats driving this on.

 

As i said this problem is only going to grow. I would highly recommend once again that Razbam release a statement, sooner rather than later.

[Cornelius]

Please comment to what you know, I have spent the last day and a half trying to get caught up, and work on these issues. We are hardly riding it out. Remember that me and BN also have our own stuff to deal with as well, so we are balancing all that with this as well. If that is not good enough, and you cant give us the time, then fine, but please don't make up things.

 

Guys, coming here calling RAZBAM or ED scammers, or making stuff up isn't doing anything but to muddy this thread and make things more difficult to work through.

 

You can think of it as me making things up, but as I have written elsewhere, after 3 years of razbam you have your experiences. Somehow ED has always tolerated their business practices, but so openly in context with this "quiet and secretly out of EA" is really a new quality.

[Harlikwin]

@nineline

 

While I'm fairly disappointed in ED backing this "out of EA release", and honestly even more horrified for what it means for the SE release.

 

Here is a short list of systems that are now where near "complete". And this is not by any means an exhaustive list.

 

Weapon modes:

Dive-toss delivery mode (missing entirely)

ARBS wind correction mode. (and at a guess a TGP equivalent mode) (missing entirely)

Actual realistic ARBS "ranging of targets" with appropriate track rates not the current "magic" ranging. (same for TGP) (missing entirely)

Actual HOT errors/issues over rolling terrain being modeled. (missing entirely)

DMT sidewinder slew/track mode. (missing entirely)

TGP "resolution is too good" (relative to say the same pod on the hornet or viper)

DMT TV "resolution is too good"

 

Other stuff:

Various coordinate entry issues

INS drift if out of IFA.

[Mr_sukebe]

I don’t see the issue here, particularly bearing in mind the current situation.

Quite clearly the Harrier has been out for a long time and doesn’t really have excuses for not having those bugs resolved.

 

Razbam do however have a LOT of money invested in the slew of new products lined up.

Very easy to put them under the thumb by simply NOT buying the incoming modules until they’ve resolved a reasonable amount of Harrier bugs.

 

Remember how that was threatened by many to Ugra that Syria wouldn’t be bought until Normandy got some love. Sure enough, Ugra significantly improved Normandy.

No different here.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Mr_sukebe

[key_stroked]

Please comment to what you know

 

...coming here calling RAZBAM or ED scammers, or making stuff up isn't doing anything but to muddy this thread and make things more difficult to work through.

 

Ok, I'll comment to what I know.

 

I know that the Harrier isn't feature-complete, but BigNewy keeps calling it that.

 

I know that both you NineLine and BigNewy consider talk like "scam" or "fraud" to be exaggerated, and yet I bought a product under ED's DCS license that doesn't match what's advertised on the product page.

 

I know that Harrier owners have been actively posting bugs reports in these very forums, even going so far as to create a community tracker because Razbam's lack of communication or acknowledgement of the reported bugs got to a point where customers felt the need to do something themselves, just to help the developer fix the product.

 

I know that Razbam employees are alive and well, actively posting on their own Discord channel daily, and yet they refuse to post in their own official forums in a BASIC attempt to try and control the damage to the trust issues they've created with their own customers.

 

I know that Razbam has made very inflammatory comments in their Discord channel concerning how they view this situation and what they think of the concern customers have for their product and its current state.

 

That's what I know. Here's what I suspect.

 

I suspect that ED isn't publicly holding them accountable for their business practice because ED wants to see sales from the F-15E Mudhen module, and by releasing the Harrier from EA without so much as a newsletter announcement or in-game news flash on that little news widget, ED was aware of the state of the Harrier, knew it would generate pushback, and that's why you and BigNewy are now in here doing damage control for Razbam.

 

I suspect that Razbam will continue to develop the Mudhen the same way they developed the Harrier, by ignoring bug reports, incorrectly modelling systems, and then calling it "feature-complete" somewhere down the line.

 

I HOPE that potential customers who might want to purchase the Mudhen will see all this discussion, the same discussion you say is "muddying up" the forum, and make an informed decision whether or not to invest money in a company that doesn't do what it says it will do, and in a company that allows that behavior to continue.

 

As BigNewy said, this discussion is necessary as long as it's constructive, civil, and organized. I think what I've written fits that bill.

[NineLine]

@nineline

 

While I'm fairly disappointed in ED backing this "out of EA release", and honestly even more horrified for what it means for the SE release.

 

Here is a short list of systems that are now where near "complete". And this is not by any means an exhaustive list.

 

Weapon modes:

Dive-toss delivery mode (missing entirely)

ARBS wind correction mode. (and at a guess a TGP equivalent mode) (missing entirely)

Actual realistic ARBS "ranging of targets" with appropriate track rates not the current "magic" ranging. (same for TGP) (missing entirely)

Actual HOT errors/issues over rolling terrain being modeled. (missing entirely)

DMT sidewinder slew/track mode. (missing entirely)

TGP "resolution is too good" (relative to say the same pod on the hornet or viper)

DMT TV "resolution is too good"

 

Other stuff:

Various coordinate entry issues

INS drift if out of IFA.

 

I was just sent a similar list that I passed to RAZBAM, I am asking them to answer some of these concerns, some are currently in work, some are in the next update, etc.

 

I would caution to say not all those are features, but improvements or bugs. I think sometimes that line gets cloudy. But they need to address those with all of you.

[Expert]

Apparently there are people who just don't want to understand the difference between those who buy and those who produce. They think they are part of the producers by buying EAs to support them and are happy to find bugs and report so they feel part of the process. I'm not telling you what to think about it because the cause of what we are experiencing with razbam depends on how these people have spent their money.

[SGT Coyle]

Apparently there are people who just don't want to understand the difference between those who buy and those who produce. They think they are part of the producers by buying EAs to support them and are happy to find bugs and report so they feel part of the process. I'm not telling you what to think about it because the cause of what we are experiencing with razbam depends on how these people have spent their money.

 

 

In this case I feel the the people who buy are suckers.

[ChickenSim]

Nineline,

 

What you posted is pretty concisely the crux of the issue. As these missing functions get categorized as merely Feature Improvements or Requests, they ought to be held against the Store page's claims that the product features qualify as

 

- "realistic performance and flight characteristics of a Vertical Takeoff and Landing (VTOL) aircraft" that is missing aerodynamic properties described in the flight manuals like jetblast impingement; or

 

- "Highly realistic modelling of the aircraft systems [...] that includes" things like the Environment Control System (not modeled at all to my knowledge), VREST Computer (minimally functional with placeholder values), Electrical Power System (minimally functional with entire panels non-functional), and Flight Control System (with an AFC that does not function as it should); or

 

- "Realistic weapons, sensor, and defensive systems" which omit entire weapons like the advertised GBU-32 and GBU-54, or strictly do not model some employment modes or simulate some systems with any fidelity at all.

 

It is really difficult for someone reporting a potential problem to make the determination themselves what isn't working as a result of improper (or lack of) modeling and what isn't working because of an error or bug.

 

This is going to be a recurring thorn in the side of both RAZBAM and customers without transparency about what and how systems are modeled, what is or isn't functional (and isn't planned to be), and what customers should expect going forward.

Edited September 9, 2020 by ChickenSim

[rrohde]

What are the thoughts around the notion that Razbam potentially might not have the required skillset in their team of developers to bring the expected/desired ASM level/depth to the table?

 

Just curious if that's a factor at all...

Edited September 9, 2020 by rrohde