=4c=Nikola Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 Ok, it's obvious that we (customers), ED, and razbam have very different views about EA, and that's going to vastly affect my decision to buy next EA aircraft. Until now I refused to pre-purchase, and now I will just extend that decision to EA. I'm sorry, from this week, that is the only way to ensure I get what I pay for. I'm glad we got that sorted out. Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_UK Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 To be totally fair, you could also say: F-14 (been in EA a long time) to F-16 (been in EA a short time) Also comparing different EA's like that, that have had different pre-EA development times is not really fair either. How long was the F-14 in development before release compared to the F-16. Anyways. I think you have said the same things a few times now, we get that you are not happy, but the steady loop of the same thing isn't helping at this point, nor is the legal comments. We need to move forward now. What's 6 months between friends lol ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5 | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |Mirage 2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_UK Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 Both will be finished to a good state re F14/F16, the community has trust in this, not sure why people are trying to diverge the conversation --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5 | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |Mirage 2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted September 15, 2020 ED Team Share Posted September 15, 2020 Ok, it's obvious that we (customers), ED, and razbam have very different views about EA, and that's going to vastly affect my decision to buy next EA aircraft. Until now I refused to pre-purchase, and now I will just extend that decision to EA. I'm sorry, from this week, that is the only way to ensure I get what I pay for. I'm glad we got that sorted out. That is 100% your choice, and I agree that not everyone should get into EA, for sure. But this thread isn't about EA opinions, it's about AV-8B Status, so let's try and focus on that. The Discussion should be about the OP in this thread. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLTeo Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 Eh, they have been released for ~12 and ~18 months, the difference is not that great. I think the whole takeaway from this whole conversation is this: the mantra used to be "don't buy EA modules if you expect a complete product in a short amount of time". Fair enough. However with the Harrier (and others) leaving EA with some features missing, how do we change that? "Don't buy modules unless it's been X amount of time since they left EA and people on the forums tell you that most features are done?" I think we can both agree that is not exactly the greatest policy. Also I'll echo Hawkeye and thank both Bignew and Nineline for keeping up the communication. I honestly could never in a million years do your job, cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=4c=Nikola Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 That is 100% your choice, and I agree that not everyone should get into EA, for sure. But this thread isn't about EA opinions, it's about AV-8B Status, so let's try and focus on that. The Discussion should be about the OP in this thread. Ok, The new SVG is beautiful, I cannot wait to try it out. It just looks amazing. SVG technology is really good imo, it will allow for better fps and clarity of displays win-win situation. Can we have such insights every month or two? Do not expect fairness. The times of chivalry and fair competition are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapa Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) Funny to compare to the F/A-18C when some features are planned to be delivered after EA in product sustainment as well. Personally, I don't care about EA because it doesn't really reflect the state of affairs.DCS is in constant evolution and the modules must always to be adapted, fixed, enriched. EA is great to reflect a discount period with promises about features to come and of course the knowledge that some essential features are missing. After this period, as a customer and because we are all customers with different background, knowledge and mostly expectation about the realism of each module, what is important I think could be represented by badges : - Is this plane flying formation/patrol ready ? yes => badge - Is this plane Air to ground ready ? yes but not complete because missing Maverick => silver badge but not gold because not totally finished - Is this plane has a pilot for VR user ? Yes... you got it - Is the avionic complete ? Absolutly stunning, full complete as much as possible : Natops Badge Of course the idea is not to have 150 badges and create a management mess but It would be more transparent and I think also less frustrating and more encouraging for 3rd Parties because evolutions would be visible. People has some good reasons to be angry with Razbam but I don't forget also that their VR pilot is amazing and they do some stuff than no body has (or as good as they did).... There are issues with their communication and bug fixing rate/priorities (from our persective) but they also pay from my point of view, an EA process not so well defined and usefull as it is now. Edited September 15, 2020 by Chapa i7 12700k, RTX 3080ti, 64GB RAM, M.2 512Go, Quest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye_UK Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 I appreciate (and so does BIGNEWY) any patience you guys can throw our way right now as we work through this. For the pragmatic and mature players patience is never the issue and we will continue to promote this among the forums and our servers. Its been noted and i often repeat how hard you guys are pushing tirelessly and its an unenviable position currently. Doesn't matter if a project is EA for 3 years if the trust is there for it to be completed. Its why people repeatedly invest. This whole Razbam discussion however that's the core issue, trust isn't there, it's been seriously fractured born out of mistakes made by them in how they approach their operation and customers. Putting yourself and bignewy, despite the excellent job you will do is a sticking plaster it doesn't address the issues of people wanting to invest in a company with the ethics displayed. This whole sage is like pushing water uphill re moderation and Razbam are not making your lives any easier. As i said it's been educational, sadly for Razbam the actual conclusion of this will be a lack of customer retention. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCS & BMS F14B | AV-8B | F15E | F18C | F16C | F5 | F86 | A10C | JF17 | Viggen |Mirage 2000 | F1 | L-39 | C101 | Mig15 | Mig21 | Mig29 | SU27 | SU33 | F15C | AH64 | MI8 | Mi24 | Huey | KA50 | Gazelle | P47 | P51 | BF109 | FW190A/D | Spitfire | Mossie | CA | Persian Gulf | Nevada | Normandy | Channel | Syria | South Atlantic | Sinai Liquid Cooled ROG 690 13700K @ 5.9Ghz | RTX3090 FTW Ultra | 64GB DDR4 3600 MHz | 2x2TB SSD m2 Samsung 980/990 | Pimax Crystal/Reverb G2 | MFG Crosswinds | Virpil T50/CM3 | Winwing & Cougar MFD's | Buddyfox UFC | Winwing TOP & CP | Jetseat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erniedaoage Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 My personal 2 cents: There were a lot of mistakes made which are all about communication. Nobody knew that the module get a rewrite with a different texture file, which is really great if it performs as described. Then the whole thing gets out of early access a week before the new patch drops without an announcement at all. And my personal biggest disappointment is the fact, that there is no sorry at all. I'm maybe a bit oldschool, but i like to here a sorry if somebody ****s something up and if an adult is not able to say sorry, for a mistake he made, i'm simply done with that person. No honesty no trust. I am happy if the 3 modules i bought get better over time, but i will not buy anything till there are a lot of praising threads and good reviews about a new module out of EA. @Nineline and Bignewy: You 2 guys do a really fantastic job in these forums! I appreciate your work and effort to keep the ship sailing! Thank you guys you are great! Specs:WIN10, I7-4790K, ASUS RANGER VII, 16GB G.Skill DDR3, GEFORCE 1080, NVME SSD, SSD, VIRPIL T-50 THROTTLE, K-51 COLLECTIVE, MS FFB2 (CH COMBATSTICK MOD), MFG CROSSWINDS, JETPAD, RIFT S Modules:A10C, AH-64D, AJS-37, AV8B, BF109K4, CA, F/A18C, F14, F5EII, F86F, FC3, FW190A8, FW190D9, KA50, L39, M2000C, MI8TV2, MI24P, MIG15BIS, MIG19P, MIG21BIS, MIRAGE F1, P51D, SA342, SPITFIRE, UH1H, NORMANDY, PERSIAN GULF, CHANNEL, SYRIA Thrustmaster TWCS Afterburner Detent https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=223776 My Frankenwinder ffb2 stick https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/254426-finally-my-frankenwinder-comes-alive/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkthunder Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) Also comparing different EA's like that, that have had different pre-EA development times is not really fair either. How long was the F-14 in development before release compared to the F-16. Those were just examples, not meaning to divert the conversation to other modules. Since you mention it, however, nobody pushed ED to release an EA product much earlier in the development cycle than it had ever previously done, except ED themselves. That alone gave EA a new meaning, and we now know what to expect from EA going forward. What we didn't know was what to expect from "feature complete", or at least we thought we did, until the Harrier was deemed as such. It all shows that you don't have a set of standards and this makes any nomenclature pretty irrelevant. It also means we, as customers, can only base our decision on reading dozens of forum posts, sift through rumors, speculation, over-excitement and negativity, and try to guess what it is that we are buying into. :dunno: P.S. by the way, what sense does it make that the Harrier is "feautre complete", while the F-18 or F-14, which are much more polished and feature complete, are EA? Should we expect that they soon get moved out of EA as well? What about the F-16, will it be out of EA soon? You see what I mean... Edited September 15, 2020 by bkthunder Windows 10 - Intel i7 7700K 4.2 Ghz (no OC) - Asus Strix GTX 1080 8Gb - 16GB DDR4 (3000 MHz) - SSD 500GB + WD Black FZEX 1TB 6Gb/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tintifaxl Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 RAZBAM or ED should really make it easy to see which features are still missing from the module. Otherwise people who purchase the Harrier will potentially be pretty unhappy after realizing what they (don't) get. And please don't move a module out of EA that has no proper manual! Windows 10 64bit, Intel i9-9900@5Ghz, 32 Gig RAM, MSI RTX 3080 TI, 2 TB SSD, 43" 2160p@1440p monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sc_neo Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 I actually wanted to propose something along the lines like an "integrated bug and feature" tracker that would be binding for ED and third parties to populate before EA and keep updated with each patch. An expandle/collapsable list that contains all highlevel features. Klicking on a feature opens a list with all subfeatures where the devs have the option to annotate the various implementation states like missing/partially implemented/placeholder/fully completed etc. shortly explain whats what. A subfeature can then further expanded to display a bugsection which can be edited and populated by the community as well. This could be a one-shop-stop where everyone can grasp at one glance: 1. Which features have been promised 2. What are the exact subfeatures and what is there current state of implementeation 3. What bugs have been submitted in each sub-feature section. This way it would be super easy to find out wether something is a bug posted by a community member, or wether something is not working as described in the manual because a feature is not yet fully implemented, waiting on some other engine tech upgrade, or is a bit shallow because ....you know "sekrit" :) As we all know; right now a user has to hunt the store page, maybe a status thread in a modules forum section, various bug reports threads, check reddit and discord channels to get an overview of a modules current state. This is the most tiring part of EA. Its not the time it takes for modules to be fully completed, but the lack of knowledge whats going on which i feel is due to the lack of a central, authoritave place where all features and bugs are collected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) I'll have to ask Kate how close we are to showing that stuff off, I know work is on going with it right now. FLIR that is. @nineline One thing I did mention in their discord, if ED would build a generalized API for Angle rate tracking systems in general I think overall DCS could benefit from it. I'm sure you have guys with the required math background to do it (and not to bag on Raz, I'm not sure they do). And outside the US ARBS system which was used on the Harrier/A4M/F4 pods, probably others, I know Russian A/C used it too, and its a technique more generally used in almost all modern TGP's as well as RWR's and IRST's. So I think having some "official" API for it a) wouldn't that hard to do, and b) would benefit all of DCS. Maybe pitch that to Kate or whoever it needs pitching to. Edited September 15, 2020 by Harlikwin New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veenee Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) And if new users see the things missing on the Harrier Store page, 1 the manual 2 the GBU, we would hope they would come to the forums and find out that they are coming. I am wondering what was to point of creating this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285495 as it seems like only 2 things are missing? :music_whistling: Edited September 15, 2020 by veenee So many modules, so little time... www.mikphotography.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
key_stroked Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 Those were just examples, not meaning to divert the conversation to other modules. Since you mention it, however, nobody pushed ED to release an EA product much earlier in the development cycle than it had ever previously done, except ED themselves. That alone gave EA a new meaning, and we now know what to expect from EA going forward. What we didn't know was what to expect from "feature complete", or at least we thought we did, until the Harrier was deemed as such. It all shows that you don't have a set of standards and this makes any nomenclature pretty irrelevant. It also means we, as customers, can only base our decision on reading dozens of forum posts, sift through rumors, speculation, over-excitement and negativity, and try to guess what it is that we are buying into. :dunno: P.S. by the way, what sense does it make that the Harrier is "feautre complete", while the F-18 or F-14, which are much more polished and feature complete, are EA? Should we expect that they soon get moved out of EA as well? What about the F-16, will it be out of EA soon? You see what I mean... Thanks, you put it much more simply than I did, in that the term "Early Access" doesn't have the same meaning across all modules. Which is super confusing. I am wondering what was to point of creating this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285495 as it seems like only 2 things are missing? :music_whistling: Another good point. Nineline himself asked for that thread, but now is saying the only features missing from what was advertised is the GBU-54 and the manual. It's these kinds of inconsistencies why threads go for 64 pages, and people keep asking the same questions without any real answers from ED or Razbam. I've asked Nineline directly why the F-18 remains in EA but the Harrier is out, but he declined to answer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freehand Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) Not going to bite. Edited September 15, 2020 by freehand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 Personally, I don't care about EA because it doesn't really reflect the state of affairs.DCS is in constant evolution and the modules must always to be adapted, fixed, enriched. EA is great to reflect a discount period with promises about features to come and of course the knowledge that some essential features are missing. After this period, as a customer and because we are all customers with different background, knowledge and mostly expectation about the realism of each module, what is important I think could be represented by badges : - Is this plane flying formation/patrol ready ? yes => badge - Is this plane Air to ground ready ? yes but not complete because missing Maverick => silver badge but not gold because not totally finished - Is this plane has a pilot for VR user ? Yes... you got it - Is the avionic complete ? Absolutly stunning, full complete as much as possible : Natops Badge Of course the idea is not to have 150 badges and create a management mess but It would be more transparent and I think also less frustrating and more encouraging for 3rd Parties because evolutions would be visible. People has some good reasons to be angry with Razbam but I don't forget also that their VR pilot is amazing and they do some stuff than no body has (or as good as they did).... There are issues with their communication and bug fixing rate/priorities (from our persective) but they also pay from my point of view, an EA process not so well defined and usefull as it is now. Yeah I actually think this isn't a terrible idea. Rank the module in various areas 1-10 in terms of "complete" or "systems well done". Maybe we should start a thread on where we think the harrier is in terms of FM General Avionics Nav Avionics A/G weapons A/G weapon systems (arbs/dmt/tgp) A/A weapon systems others? 1 New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLTeo Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 Damage model, additional content (campaigns, manual et al), additional assets (AI etc, though that doesn't apply to the Harrier). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessuno0505 Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 (edited) Funny to compare to the F/A-18C when some features are planned to be delivered after EA in product sustainment as well. I did not know about this choice and this is something I do not agree: you state "early access Is not for everyone" and there's a clear difference between early access (missing stuff) and released (feature complete). If all of this is going to change it will be difficult for customers to understand what to buy and when. I never boughr early access, what am I suppose to do now? Do not buy even if the module Is in release status, and wait... until when? That's a dangerous choice and I hope It could be changed. Edited September 15, 2020 by nessuno0505 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nessuno0505 Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 How long was the F-14 in development before release compared to the F-16. Then maybe the f-16 should have been released later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxtmp Posted September 15, 2020 Share Posted September 15, 2020 @nineline One thing I did mention in their discord, if ED would build a generalized API for Angle rate tracking systems in general I think overall DCS could benefit from it. I'm sure you have guys with the required math background to do it (and not to bag on Raz, I'm not sure they do). And outside the US ARBS system which was used on the Harrier/A4M/F4 pods, probably others, I know Russian A/C used it too, and its a technique more generally used in almost all modern TGP's as well as RWR's and IRST's. So I think having some "official" API for it a) wouldn't that hard to do, and b) would benefit all of DCS. Maybe pitch that to Kate or whoever it needs pitching to. The math for this is not difficult it is first year college engineering calculus, high school trigonometry, and physics. I would hope any flight sim development team would have this capability in house. Also the formulas are all over the internet in physics/math forums as its just a standard math and geometry problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted September 15, 2020 ED Team Share Posted September 15, 2020 Then maybe the f-16 should have been released later? We have already answered this. Thanks. I am wondering what was to point of creating this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285495 as it seems like only 2 things are missing? :music_whistling: There is a difference between missing, still being developed, and bugs. I did not know about this choice and this is something I do not agree: you state "early access Is not for everyone" and there's a clear difference between early access (missing stuff) and released (feature complete). If all of this is going to change it will be difficult for customers to understand what to buy and when. I never boughr early access, what am I suppose to do now? Do not buy even if the module Is in release status, and wait... until when? That's a dangerous choice and I hope It could be changed. When the F/A-18C releases from EA, it will have a lot going on, and much to do and use, but in product sustainment we will continue the development, and keep adding more to it. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlikwin Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 The math for this is not difficult it is first year college engineering calculus, high school trigonometry, and physics. I would hope any flight sim development team would have this capability in house. Also the formulas are all over the internet in physics/math forums as its just a standard math and geometry problem. And yet, I have my doubts. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mue Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 There is a difference between missing, still being developed, and bugs. No, it doesn't matter if the feature is missing because of bugs or if the feature is still being developed. The feature is missing, period. Is this the new ED quality policy: A feature can be labeled as completed even though it's actually missing. The 3rd party developer only have to promise "it's still being developed"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snappy Posted September 16, 2020 Share Posted September 16, 2020 I am wondering what was to point of creating this thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285495 as it seems like only 2 things are missing? :music_whistling: Can‘t tell whether you‘re trolling or just being sarcastic.Did u actually read the thread.Theres a lot more functionality missing than just two things. Regards, snappy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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