Disable RWR notification for AMRAAM radar.

[=4c=Nikola]

This guy at 1:19:50 says AMRAAM radar is not powerful enough to trigger RWR warning. Can you disable that feature as DCS is inconsistent with the testimony?

 

 

[GGTharos]

That makes no sense.  This missile will put a lot more RF power on the target faster than the shooting aircraft.  The power density is inversely proportional to the square of the distance.

[=4c=Nikola]

1 minute ago, GGTharos said:

That makes no sense.  This missile will put a lot more RF power on the target faster than the shooting aircraft.  The power density is inversely proportional to the square of the distance.

 

No disrespect, but he shot down two aircraft with that missile launched from elite aircraft which he would able to have access to only if he was very knowledgeable. 

[razo+r]

1) Was he on the receiving end? How does he know they didn't get any notifications?

 

2) What's with the part when he says "If your sensors aren't sensitive enough, you'd have no idea you're being shot at"? Do we just leave this out?

 

3) And what about the manual that states: 

 

Quote

The SPO-15 model implemented in game is very close to the actual system installed in the MiG-29.

and

Quote

An ARH missile can be detected by the system after a missile establishes a lock using its own radar seeker.

 

[=4c=Nikola]

6 minutes ago, razo+r said:

1) Was he on the receiving end? How does he know they didn't get any notifications?

 

2) What's with the part when he says "If your sensors aren't sensitive enough, you'd have no idea you're being shot at"? Do we just leave this out?

 

3) And what about the manual that states: 

 

and

 

2. In that part he was talking about aircraft radar and different mods, not the missile.

 

One more evidence is that the other pilot (which shot down 3 aircraft) did not object, so he probably agrees.

[GGTharos]

13 minutes ago, 4cNikola said:

No disrespect, but he shot down two aircraft with that missile launched from elite aircraft which he would able to have access to only if he was very knowledgeable. 

 

That's fine, I'm just saying the physics doesn't work out.

 

Eg, 10kw radar at 50nm:

 2.7e-7 watts to be detected by the RWR

 

250W radar (AMRAAM?) at 10nm:

1e-7 watts.

 

This is with a turned down antenna gain for the 120, but either way, even if you lowered the gain or even the wattage, at around 5nm the RWR should be picking it up .. assuming the threshold is the one above, which is not the case - the RWR will be a lot more sensitive that this anyway since it picks up the emission further away.

[Oceandar]

Is that Jeffrey Hwang who shot down 2 Serbian MiGs single handedly by using TWS? IIRC his wingman also shot few Amraams but only Hwang missiles met their target, that should tell something IMO.

[GGTharos]

What would you like it to tell you?

 

They couldn't tell if all three missiles hit (the wingman launched one missile IIRC, not 'a few'), so the Pk here is counted at 2/3.  But it's possible that all 3 missiles hit.

 

So, what conclusion would you draw here?

Edited December 14, 2020 by GGTharos

[Oceandar]

Ah yes one missile from his wingman according to audio record. I was confusing with what I've read on this forum years back that someone wrote that the Serb claimed it was more than 3 missiles shot. So I don't believe MiG' RWR didnt ring for incoming missiles.
Audio trancript :
http://spotter-ssol.blogspot.com/2012/06/kosovo-mig-kills.html?m=1

[Dragon1-1]

The MiG will get no launch warning for the AMRAAM, but once the missile goes pitbull, the RWR will light up, all right. Note that if it goes defensive at that point, it's toast no matter what it does. In BVR, you have to guess when the enemy had launched, and go defensive way before you see the missile on RWR, especially if you're in an older plane. This is so both in DCS and IRL. 

[FoxAlfa]

Also keep in mind that RL SPO-15, blinks each time you are illuminated by let's say Hornet radar, so you should be able to tell by the rate of blinks if he is in RWS or TWS on you.

Edited December 14, 2020 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

You can reduce RWS so that it runs the same scan rate IRL.  Also, with multiple radars in the air it probably won't matter.

29 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The MiG will get no launch warning for the AMRAAM, but once the missile goes pitbull, the RWR will light up, all right. Note that if it goes defensive at that point, it's toast no matter what it does. In BVR, you have to guess when the enemy had launched, and go defensive way before you see the missile on RWR, especially if you're in an older plane. This is so both in DCS and IRL. 

 

The tactics dictate actions - in any case there is a lot of speculation that the RWRs were inoperable and/or that they didn't have the correct data to represent AMRAAM etc.

[=4c=Nikola]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The MiG will get no launch warning for the AMRAAM, but once the missile goes pitbull, the RWR will light up, all right. Note that if it goes defensive at that point, it's toast no matter what it does. In BVR, you have to guess when the enemy had launched, and go defensive way before you see the missile on RWR, especially if you're in an older plane. This is so both in DCS and IRL. 

 

That's not what he said. He was very clear that RWR would not pick up an active amraam.

[FoxAlfa]

19 minutes ago, 4cNikola said:

 

That's not what he said. He was very clear that RWR would not pick up an active amraam.

We are going in the details but:
He is explaining how TWS works and we all agree it doesn't trigger RWR and that is point of TWS he is trying to explain... but when missile goes active... he said... IF your sensors are not sensitive enough you might not get a warning... and says you might hear... bing... bing... and loud explosion.... I take his bing bing as late RWR warning....  

And now back to physics... it quite simple why RWR have a much much better detection range then radars. For the radar you must have enough power to travel to the target, reflect on an irregular shape and carry enough power back to the radar so it can tell it apart from the noise and try to build up some picture. RWR just detects it power at step one... so, if radar gets back enough information to track, RWR is getting way more on the target side. 

 

[Ironhand]

FoxAlpha, he begins by discussing what TWS is and how it works but then he says: “... then once the radar in the missile goes active, it’s not powerful enough to trigger your radar warning receiver. So, in that sense, you will hear the ding-a-ding and a very loud bang.”

 

He may be simply saying that you’re not going to get a launch warning but it certainly isn’t clear.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Ironhand

[Mars Exulte]

19 hours ago, 4cNikola said:

 

That's not what he said. He was very clear that RWR would not pick up an active amraam.

 

 

Just because you saw one guy say it does not make it 100% infallible, no slight to the guy intended. Believe it or not, having wings does not mean he's an expert on radar. It doesn't even guarantee he's an authority on aircraft in general. Getting a kill means his weapon performed adequately and he (probably) observed correct launch procedures, it means zip as to how much he knows about how the missile itself or its radar works in great detail. I've met multiple professional pilots who ''appealed to authority'' despite obviously having no idea wtf they were talking about.

 

I'm not saying he's one of them, or even that he's wrong. I AM saying that ''one guy in one example said it'' is not valid point in and of itself. That's why for example, scientists presenting theories have to get them thoroughly reviewed by multiple authorities before it gets widely accepted as ''fact'', because ''accredited'' and ''expert in field'' does not mean he didn't just come up with ''some crackpot bs''.

 

PS

And ''the other guy didn't publicly contradict him on camera'' doesn't necessarily mean he agrees with him. It means he's polite, but it doesn't mean he agrees. Or have you never seen a politician blowing nonsense out his ass while an interviewer politely smiles and nods?

Edited December 15, 2020 by zhukov032186

[wilbur81]

23 hours ago, 4cNikola said:

AMRAAM radar is not powerful enough to trigger RWR warning.

 

Nonsense.

Edited December 15, 2020 by wilbur81

[=4c=Nikola]

33 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

 

Nonsense.

 

Not my words. I've quoted US air force pilot.

[Mars Exulte]

15 minutes ago, 4cNikola said:

Not my words. I've quoted US air force pilot.

It was nonsense when he said it, too lol

[wilbur81]

41 minutes ago, 4cNikola said:

Not my words. I've quoted US air force pilot.

Got it. I just mean that, whoever said it, that statement is just not accurate.

[Dragon1-1]

Yeah, remember that an USAF pilot would never have been on the receiving end of a live Slammer, especially not flying anything equipped with an SPO-15. In general, people who had been shot at with AMRAAMs and lived are in a bit of a short supply. This guy doesn't know any more about being shot at with real missiles than we do, and I suspect he doesn't know that much about the SPO-15, either (seeing as it's not a feature of the aircraft he flies). 

 

SPO-15 is perfectly capable of detecting and recognizing a signal from an AIM-120, and will quite loudly announce the fact you're being shot at. It's not a very advanced RWR, but it works, at least according to the Russians.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Dragon1-1

[TotenDead]

Maybe NATO RWR aren't capable of detecting active amraams, if so, then i suppose blue RWRs could be tuned down to suit pilots' words

Edited December 16, 2020 by TotenDead

[Nipil]

Making such big changes to the game, especially when they are going to totally kill the gameplay, because some pilot told something in a video on the internet is a bit strange, isn't it? With all due respect to this pilot, whom I don't try to offend, I don't see his words as a reliable source. After all, we need something more documental to base a high fidelity simulation on. If you find some official docs saying the same thing - it's going to be a totally different case, but words of one pilot are totally not enough to make any decisive conclusions.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Nipil

[Northstar98]

It doesn't sound right at all; ultimately the AMRAAM's seeker has to be much more sensitive to be able to detect its own reflected pulses than a RWR needs to be to detect them - which is fairly simple physics.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Northstar98

[nighthawk2174]

Something else to consider is the exact way the RWR is set up.  It could be such that the frequency/PRF of the amraam was outside of the orignal design.  Or it could be related too:

But I would take this with a massive grain of salt. 

 

 

BUT, imo he's talking about TWS itself and the RWR not being able picking up the guidance signals to the amraam and not the missiles seeker and just misspoke.  That or the SPO-15 has an inerent flaw where it could not pick up the amraam for some reason.  I'll dig and see if I find anything.

Edited December 18, 2020 by nighthawk2174