Which runway to land on? Unless directed always land on Left

[DmitriKozlowsky]

This question has been dogging me whenever I am recovering to field with parallel runways.

Unless directed otherwise , land on Left runway. So if ATC tells you to land on Runway 21 but does not state side, it means land on 21L. Luckily for us if departure runway is 03L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway.  03L is same peice of concrete as 21R.

Similarly if instructed to taxi to 03 but without L or R, taxi to L.

Maybe this is obvious to many in DCS community and real world aviation, but it was not obvious to me.

 

My guess is that it why Nellis ILS is only on arrival 21L runway.

Edited December 22, 2020 by DmitriKozlowsky

[Dangerzone]

8 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

 Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway. 

 

I appreciate the info. I'm just a little confused by this statement. 21L should be 21L regardless of landing or departing, shouldn't it?

 

Or do you mean if someone is departing on the reciprocal (ie, if they are departing on the opposite end they would be on 03L (which is the same tarmac as 21R)?

[Pantera93]

IIRC, Nellis always gives me instruction to taxi and T.O. from runway 3 Right, but it won't tell me which one to land on.

 

Should I use 21L or R in this case?

[Nealius]

Digging through Nellis SOP docs, if I understand correctly:

 

- 21L is primary for instrument approach

- 03L/21R is primary for VFR approach unless otherwise instructed

- 03L/R departure is mandatory for inert or live ordnance unless waivered for 21L/R departure

[DmitriKozlowsky]

7 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

 

I appreciate the info. I'm just a little confused by this statement. 21L should be 21L regardless of landing or departing, shouldn't it?

 

Or do you mean if someone is departing on the reciprocal (ie, if they are departing on the opposite end they would be on 03L (which is the same tarmac as 21R)?

No. The L or R is with respect to nose of the aircraft. Or front to the pilot. In other words. Take off and land on LEFT runway to your LEFT. Go to map view or goto Google Earth and check out Nellis runways or any large airport. You note that L are on opposite runways.

3 hours ago, Pantera93 said:

IIRC, Nellis always gives me instruction to taxi and T.O. from runway 3 Right, but it won't tell me which one to land on.

 

Should I use 21L or R in this case?

If not explicitly given L or R and just a number land on LEFT. Your LEFT. L and R are with respect to departure and arrival.

3 hours ago, Pantera93 said:

IIRC, Nellis always gives me instruction to taxi and T.O. from runway 3 Right, but it won't tell me which one to land on.

 

Should I use 21L or R in this case?

LEFT

[DmitriKozlowsky]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

Digging through Nellis SOP docs, if I understand correctly:

 

- 21L is primary for instrument approach

- 03L/21R is primary for VFR approach unless otherwise instructed

- 03L/R departure is mandatory for inert or live ordnance unless waivered for 21L/R departure

ATC instruction takes precedence over any published SOP. Runway number without Left or Right, means LEFT. I suppose sometimes ATC will tell you Number+R. So then you use right. So rule of thumb is always use LEFT runway by default. Takeoff on L and recover on L. Because arrival L is the opposite runway departure L.

 

With Nellis (in RW), that isolated pad/ramp behind DOE ramp (for loading and offloading special devices), is the stores safe/arm , munitions download area. I don't think we do this in DCS, but apparently in real world its for arming and safing real munitions. If the mission is to train with real green munitions (blue stripes is training munitions) , the pulling of red tags, and reinsertion of red tags for safeing, is done in that area. Fun factoid. Armorers and ramp people call pulling those red tags from munitions "Red Tag Sale". In some types, the red tags are used to arm seats, and ramp crewman would hold up the tags for pilot to acknowledge. Some critical tags , aside from weapons arming, are pitot and ADC intake covers. In real world, many a life was lost, becouse pitot and ADC covers were not removed.

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

ATC instruction takes precedence over any published SOP.

 

You'll notice the SOP says "unless otherwise instructed." I go by the SOP because the DCS ATC is criminally stupid. 

[USAF-Falcon87]

• In the real world, ATC will NEVER give you just "land on runway 21" if there is a left and a right.  They will be very specific, and pilots are required to read back the correct full runway number as well. The game, however, isn't quite so directive, so it leaves it up to your discretion.
• In the absence of air traffic control in the real world (uncontrolled airports), any runway may be used.  Since left traffic is standard (at least in the US), it would make sense to land on the left and takeoff on the right, but there is no guarantee that someone isn't doing otherwise by departing from the left (or even departing from the left runway in the OTHER direction in the case of relatively light winds!).  All pilots are responsible for maintaining safe separation at all times.
• 21L for takeoff is the same as 21L for landing.  The runway numbers never change.  (However, 21L would be 3R is you were landing in the opposite direction.)

The same philosophy should hold in-game as in the real world:

1) Trust no one. 

2) Maintain a safe path for all operations.

3) NEVER trust another pilot not to screw up.

 

[Dangerzone]

12 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

No. The L or R is with respect to nose of the aircraft. Or front to the pilot. In other words. Take off and land on LEFT runway to your LEFT. Go to map view or goto Google Earth and check out Nellis runways or any large airport. You note that L are on opposite runways.

If not explicitly given L or R and just a number land on LEFT. Your LEFT. L and R are with respect to departure and arrival.

LEFT

 

Sorry - I'm still confused by your reference to the difference between landing and departing. Landing or departing has no bearing on the runway at all. 

 

(I'm aware that the L and R is to do with the pilots perspective (or the direction of the runway) - but taking of on 21L and landing on 21L will be using the exact same tarmac in the same direction. 21L will still be the same for the pilot regardless of whether they're landing or departing). 

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect and I'm just clarifying when you said:

 

" Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway."

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect. Departing 21L and recovery 21L are the same runway.  (Think about doing a circuit on 21L - you are going to take off and land in the same direction on the same runway).

Edited December 21, 2020 by Dangerzone

[Ironhand]

[DmitriKozlowsky]

7 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

 

Sorry - I'm still confused by your reference to the difference between landing and departing. Landing or departing has no bearing on the runway at all. 

 

(I'm aware that the L and R is to do with the pilots perspective (or the direction of the runway) - but taking of on 21L and landing on 21L will be using the exact same tarmac in the same direction. 21L will still be the same for the pilot regardless of whether they're landing or departing). 

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect and I'm just clarifying when you said:

 

" Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway."

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect. Departing 21L and recovery 21L are the same runway.  (Think about doing a circuit on 21L - you are going to take off and land in the same direction on the same runway).

 

When you are about to take off from runway 03L (at Nellis), you are lined up nose facing direction 30  . Your aircraft is sitting on top of letters 03L.

When you are returning to Nellis, from cockpit on approach you see two runways. The one to YOUR LEFT is 21L, letters on threshold say so. Tower tells you land on 21 but does not give you L or R. So in absence of L or R you default to L , in this case 21L. I think thats where your confusion is from, and partly my fault. Every physical runway is actually two runways from ATC point of view. Runway 03L is also runway 21R, they are the same peice of concrete. Runway 3R is also runway 21L, 3 + 180 = 210. So taking off from runway 3L from Nellis, and landing on runway 21L at Nellis, you are using two physically separate runways, so there is no head on collision with departing aircraft on 3L. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

7 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

 

Sorry - I'm still confused by your reference to the difference between landing and departing. Landing or departing has no bearing on the runway at all. 

 

(I'm aware that the L and R is to do with the pilots perspective (or the direction of the runway) - but taking of on 21L and landing on 21L will be using the exact same tarmac in the same direction. 21L will still be the same for the pilot regardless of whether they're landing or departing). 

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect and I'm just clarifying when you said:

 

" Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway."

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect. Departing 21L and recovery 21L are the same runway.  (Think about doing a circuit on 21L - you are going to take off and land in the same direction on the same runway).

 

ATC Instruction sample

ATC-"AlphaDog1, cleared to taxi to runway 3, hold short"

Your action- Taxi to runway 03L stop at yellow line demarking runway intrusion, and ask tower for takeoff.

ATC- "AlphaDog1, you are cleared to depart runway 3................"

You- Taxi onto runway threshhold of runway 03L, spool up and off you go. Since arriving traffic is on your right, they are landing on 21L, you bank to the left, unless instructed otherwise by ATC.

On return to Nellis.

ATC-"Cleared to on runway 21, check gear.........."

You - Line up and recover aircraft on runway 21L.

 

So by default, when not given L or R extension, only runway direction, use Left 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

7 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

 

Sorry - I'm still confused by your reference to the difference between landing and departing. Landing or departing has no bearing on the runway at all. 

 

(I'm aware that the L and R is to do with the pilots perspective (or the direction of the runway) - but taking of on 21L and landing on 21L will be using the exact same tarmac in the same direction. 21L will still be the same for the pilot regardless of whether they're landing or departing). 

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect and I'm just clarifying when you said:

 

" Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway."

 

From what I can see your statement in your original post is incorrect. Departing 21L and recovery 21L are the same runway.  (Think about doing a circuit on 21L - you are going to take off and land in the same direction on the same runway).

 

Heres Google Earth of LAX

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.93550177,-118.41422636,34.42771196a,1053.32269078d,35y,-2.90376289h,3.18294398t,-0r

 

Note 7L and 7R are parralel. So if LAX Tower tells you to taxi to runway 7, you taxi to runway 7L. UNLESS they explicitely tell you to taxi to runway 7R

 

Scroll to opposite end of runways

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.93743221,-118.38596427,27.62808145a,1060.13273302d,35y,-2.90376301h,3.18294738t,-0r

 

You see 25L and 25R  7 + 180 = 250

If ATC tells you to land to on runway 25, you land on runway 25L. Unless tower tell you to land on 25R. So a runway direction without side extension means use L.

In DCS we have to read the ATC instruction text and listen to audio. Although DCS ATC does not audio the L or R, it does print the instruction on top of the screen. It goes of quickly, so we must pay attention.

[t1mb0b]

To quote the OP

        "Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway"

 

21L isn't 21L, interesting.

Please correct or better still just delete your first post, the sentence above makes it's garbage. You are confusing newbie users.

 

All anyone needs to know is that a runway is identified by the first two digits of the heading, 01 thru 36

If there are 2 or even 3 strips of concrete parallel, then from left to right, they are designated L C R.

 

If you land by mistake on the wrong one in DCS there isn't going to be an inquiry, in RL it's different.

 

[henshao]

The problem/confusion is that OP is taking off from 03L and landing on 21L but calling them both 21L in the first post.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

36 minutes ago, t1mb0b said:

To quote the OP

        "Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway"

 

21L isn't 21L, interesting.

Please correct or better still just delete your first post, the sentence above makes it's garbage. You are confusing newbie users.

 

All anyone needs to know is that a runway is identified by the first two digits of the heading, 01 thru 36

If there are 2 or even 3 strips of concrete parallel, then from left to right, they are designated L C R.

 

If you land by mistake on the wrong one in DCS there isn't going to be an inquiry, in RL it's different.

 

Yes my error

""Luckily for us if departure runway is 21L, then  recovery runway is 21L, the two are not same runway""

 

Should say if Departure runway is 03L then recovery runway is 21L. Most important meme, when in doubt use Left runway.

[bazza772]

Hey Dmitri. Takeoff and landing will be in the same direction IRL. Normally dictated by wind above a certain speed, but otherwise by noise or preferred routings in light wind conditions. Depart 21L and land 21R or 21L, subject to traffic and parking assignment, for example - you don’t just turn round and come back in the opposite direction....

 

Also the dominant local airfield will dictate the direction when it’s not wind constrained. For example all NY airports are led by JFK so LGA etc will (normally) comply with Kennedy’s wishes, and I imagine it’s McCarren that tells Nellis which way they are landing when they are very busy. Obviously a compromise between ATC is reached when possible, but don’t expect Nellis to be landing south if mccarren is landing north (for example). Many airfields will also swap sides to share out the noise pollution where that is a factor.

 

Also many US airports have 4 or more parallel runways, often 2 each side of the terminal area. The numbering on these is changed to avoid confusion. For example at DFW you get 5 runways pointing north south but numbered 17L 17C 17R 18L 18R - all pointing the same way but numerically split to make it easier (just remember they are all 180ish when doing your performance or crosswind Calc) - that’s one of the many many reasons why this is a game .

 

plus.... rule of thumb - on a pair of parallel runways the long one is for take off and the short for landing. Performance based due weight primarily but can be switched as long as Perf permits. 

while we are on a roll, on each side of the airport the closest runway of the parallel pair will normally be the longer one - aircraft can land on the outer one and wait their turn to cross with no fuel issues. Departing aircraft are wasting enough fuel queuing as it is without having to cross an active runway at heavy weight between tightly spaced landing jets.  All part of the picture a pro generates when approaching a busy area for the first time and trying to build SA.

Edited December 22, 2020 by bazza772

[Dangerzone]

15 hours ago, bazza772 said:

Hey Dmitri. Takeoff and landing will be in the same direction IRL.

 

 

Indeed - this is where I got confused. (I fly IRL and have experience and L & R runways), but have never been in a situation myself where two parallel runways are are working simultaneously in opposite directions. If the wind shifts, both L and R would swap together, so that traffic is always flowing in one direction.

 

As a disclaimer - I admit I have only flown as a civilian pilot, not military so I have no idea if military would ever operate differently for any reason I'm not aware of (I would doubt it, but don't want to assume something I'm not familiar with), but I think I understand the OP now - they're departing 21L, but returning on 03L - (not 21), meaning that 03L and 21L are different runway strips - and they won't have a head on collision (on the runway at least)- provided everyone stays left all the time. (Like driving a car)   

 

I also see the OP has edited the post - which makes much more sense now - thanks very much for clarification. I was really beginning to think i was losing my mind on that one! 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Dangerzone

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Not at Nellis. Recovery runway is 21, departure runway is 03. But, yes, a good point. However my question was which runway to use when there are multiple runways  along same direction. When given runway number to use without R L, or C, use left.

Thank you.

[Volator]

1 hour ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Not at Nellis. Recovery runway is 21, departure runway is 03.

Only if wind permits.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

4 hours ago, Pilot Ike said:

Only if wind permits.

I suspect that it is permanent 03 departure and 21 recovery. Unless the winds make it a safety issue. But in LasVegas, I think it has to do with safety and sound abatement. Having military aircraft departing or recovering over urban area is undesirable. Miramar and ElCentro , I believe, were closed, or had severely curtailed air operations due to urban sprawl growth.

[Brun]

There was a thread a year or two ago about restrictions when landing on 03, something like staying north of East Lake Mead Blvd. So it does happen.

[RackMonkey]

Unless there's a performance reason, the departure runway is always the closest to the parking ramp, called the "inside" runway. Arrivals are on the "outside" runway. For traffic flow efficiency it is easier to get an arriving acft across a departure runway that it is to get a departing acft across a landing runway. Watch any plane spotter video at LAX, ATL, NYC and you'll see this to be true. DCS doesn't seem to take this into account when they set up precision approach's at their airports.      

Edited December 24, 2020 by RackMonkey

[henshao]

42 minutes ago, RackMonkey said:

Unless a performance reason the departure runway is always the closest to the parking ramp, called the "inside" runway. Arrivals are on the "outside" runway. For traffic flow efficiency it is easier to get an arriving acft across a departure runway that it is to get a departing acft across a landing runway. Watch any plane spotter video at LAX, ATL, NYC and you'll see this to be true. DCS doesn't seem to take this into account when they set up precision approach's at their airports.      

 

 

That makes sense. a landing aircraft ties up a runway for a long time compared to a bird on the ground which can be instructed to wait short of a runway or wait on a runway

[bazza772]

See last 2 paras of my post above .

Heavy jet departure takes longer than a decent braking arrival (at take off I am tonnes heavier than landing and my decel is better than the accel) - but times are about the same across the day. 
it’s where the skill of ATC comes in managing arrival and departure ‘flows’ , both military and civil, and is a significant part of the workload. This is totally absent in DCS world for obvious reasons.

cheers.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by bazza772