noted F-16A

[F-2]

2 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Realistically the Cold war ended in 89, or even earlier with the polish worker strikes, the most plausible 80's scenario is in 83 i.e. Able archer. Anything really past that is pretty much fantasy. There was 0 political will to invade Europe after the early 80's. Besides there was no non nuke scenario anyway, literally every war plan known starts with multiple rounds of tac nukes all over Europe. So basically you have "early" 80's as your credible WW3 scenario.

Where the early vipers are interesting is the other theatres where they fought and were used. 

Also, early deliveries etc don't really make it relevant, like great you have 3 birds and 2 guys that are training to fly them. Most of those later blocs were not relevant for this very simple reason. 

 

Too picky, hard to say it’s credible when it never happened. And it creates a strange situation. We could argue during the Detente no one was invading Europe and cut out the late sixties and most of the 70s. Cold War historians actually do separate the early Cold War, Detente, and the “New Cold War” of 1979-1985. That would leave us the early and new Cold War, but one has to ask how realistic either of these would have actually been with the massive nuclear arsenals on both sides, seven days to the Rhine the Warsaw pact war plan from the late 70s starts with a nuclear bombardment of west Germany. 
 

then their is the issue is all of this is alternate history any way. We allow for Able archer to be our alternate point but not for example a hardliner taking over in 1985, or the Soviets attempt to stop the 1989 revolutions in force or the Soviets supported Saddam in 1990 or the 1991 coup succeeded and what ever aftermath of what that might be? Hell some might be more interested in doing red storm rises in 1989 rather than able archer in 1983. The Cold War is a cultural era more to the people who are interested in it then a specific event anyone is looking to reenact. 

[Nipil]

On 10/21/2023 at 12:39 AM, Harlikwin said:

Realistically the Cold war ended in 89, or even earlier with the polish worker strikes, the most plausible 80's scenario is in 83 i.e. Able archer. Anything really past that is pretty much fantasy. There was 0 political will to invade Europe after the early 80's. Besides there was no non nuke scenario anyway, literally every war plan known starts with multiple rounds of tac nukes all over Europe. So basically you have "early" 80's as your credible WW3 scenario.

Where the early vipers are interesting is the other theatres where they fought and were used. 

Also, early deliveries etc don't really make it relevant, like great you have 3 birds and 2 guys that are training to fly them. Most of those later blocs were not relevant for this very simple reason. 

 

Early C blocks were already numerous enough by 1989. But, as I've said already, I would prefer the A model too.

Regarding plausible WW3 scenarios, I believe that your criteria are too stringent, TBH. If we want to plausibly exclude total nuclear exterminatus, than early 60's are probably the latest point we can take. Or... Maybe not, because by the 80's the "limited nuclear war" concept was already being seriously considered. Compare WW2, where every major power had chemical weapons, but no one actually used them against those who had it too (thus limiting it's usage to Japan vs China and Germany vs resistance). So I have to respectfully disagree with the nuclear argument.

When it comes to political circumstances, as was already pointed out by @F-2, WW3 never happened (yet), so any WW3 scenario would be alt history with quite big deviations from OTL. And there are some alt history scenarios which involve some more prolonged "march to war", not only those which are based on IRL close calls.

Anyways, I'm just a fan of late Cold War technology. For me, late 80's is the sweetest spot between crappy unreliable analogue electronics of the early-mid CW, and the modern flying computers. That's why I love thid era the most. Also, most current "modern" DCS AI assets are from this era, and late 80's are the closest CW era to the era for which our maps are made.  But it's a matter of taste, of course.

[WinterH]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think almost any country got the early F-16A blocks with 7 segment display for an "MFD" as an export right? Also some of the export customers were pretty quick to  F-16C version already during the 80s.

Anyway, personally, I'd love that early A with a cockpit that'd feel alien when most people think about F-16, failing that, I'd be happy with any between Block 15-25. If later, I suppose Block 40 would be cool with its wide and FLIR displaying HUD, but that'd be too close in many ways to our Block 50.

[Dragon1-1]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:07 AM, F-2 said:

I also don’t think there is any publicly available performance documentation on the small tail F-16. Apparently for the F-16a those were in the classified supplement. Block 15 has tons of charts.

I wonder if FOIA could be used to get around that. With the -15 charts being published and no -10s remaining in service, there's no good argument for keeping them under wraps. Even if the manual itself has some nuke information, a redacted version of it could be sufficient. Maybe someone who lives in the US could pitch the USAF a FOIA request and see what they say.

[F-2]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I wonder if FOIA could be used to get around that. With the -15 charts being published and no -10s remaining in service, there's no good argument for keeping them under wraps. Even if the manual itself has some nuke information, a redacted version of it could be sufficient. Maybe someone who lives in the US could pitch the USAF a FOIA request and see what they say.

Not at all a bad idea. This F-16.net post goes into this

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53035

 

if you send a FOIA they would have to review it. Given the last block 10 let service in the 90s I think you have a reasonable chance.

 

it’s worth pointing out those block 15 charts you see online are not from the block 15 manual but a presentation “the fighter weapons symposium” that particular addition was for the Venezuelan Air Force F-16s in the late 80s. There are various versions of these from the early 80s to 90s and they often pop up in the Fort Worth area thrift stores. So the charts might be in classified supplements but may not themselves be classified.

[F-2]

https://x.com/AMB_FANB/status/1773525547634569689?s=20

[irisono]

DCS is taking giant steps towards Cold War era flight simulation. I also think that the F-16C doesn't quite fit into this picture. An F-16A would be much better suited to represent Blueforce in the 1980s. The DCS community will receive the Mig-23MLA and Mig-29A, which will cover the needs of the Redforce during this period. The decision for an F-16A would actually be the logical consequence. When can we expect the F-16A?

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 4/25/2024 at 11:13 AM, irisono said:

DCS is taking giant steps towards Cold War era flight simulation. I also think that the F-16C doesn't quite fit into this picture. An F-16A would be much better suited to represent Blueforce in the 1980s. The DCS community will receive the Mig-23MLA and Mig-29A, which will cover the needs of the Redforce during this period. The decision for an F-16A would actually be the logical consequence. When can we expect the F-16A?

Impossible to say and more of an if.  As for taking a step toward the Cold War era? As much as I'd love it, DCS accepts any team who can produce, really. And, a lot of the aircraft of that era do hold some nice advantages in that they lack the complexities of later 4th gen fighters, in both technical aspects and in the sense of information availability that can be utilized.

But, no matter what, we'll be forced to remove BVR weapons and JHMCS from the Viper we have to make it a stand-in for the foreseeable future. It'll need a new cockpit and flight model, given the differences between CM Block 50 we have and an A model of basically any block. With their existing obligations to support the current crop of their modules as well as finishing up the CH-47F, MiG-29A, and F6F Hellcat? They may not have the resources to begin on an F-16A just yet.

Still, that's just the ED side of things. Who's to say a third party doesn't have it in mind? I'd suspect that as the best chance. Also, this thread is tagged "noted" so that's real good news!
 

Edited April 27, 2024 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[exhausted]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:20 AM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Impossible to say and more of an if.  As for taking a step toward the Cold War era? As much as I'd love it, DCS accepts any team who can produce, really. And, a lot of the aircraft of that era do hold some nice advantages in that they lack the complexities of later 4th gen fighters, in both technical aspects and in the sense of information availability that can be utilized.

But, no matter what, we'll be forced to remove BVR weapons and JHMCS from the Viper we have to make it a stand-in for the foreseeable future. It'll need a new cockpit and flight model, given the differences between CM Block 50 we have and an A model of basically any block. With their existing obligations to support the current crop of their modules as well as finishing up the CH-47F, MiG-29A, and F6F Hellcat? They may not have the resources to begin on an F-16A just yet.

Still, that's just the ED side of things. Who's to say a third party doesn't have it in mind? I'd suspect that as the best chance. Also, this thread is tagged "noted" so that's real good news!
 

 

Yes, but there would be a lot of appeal to make an F-16A as the Europeans received it. They adopted that variant as their own, produced it locally and had some special features, like the parachute housing.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

On 4/28/2024 at 1:33 PM, exhausted said:

Yes, but there would be a lot of appeal to make an F-16A as the Europeans received it. They adopted that variant as their own, produced it locally and had some special features, like the parachute housing.

There's a lot of appeal for *a lot* of things, though.

Game development is 10 kilos of great ideas trying to fit into a 1 kilo bag.

[MAXsenna]

There's a lot of appeal for *a lot* of things, though.

Game development is 10 kilos of great ideas trying to fit into a 1 kilo bag.

So one can actually sell ideas by the pound?

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[exhausted]

On 4/30/2024 at 12:17 PM, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

There's a lot of appeal for *a lot* of things, though.

Game development is 10 kilos of great ideas trying to fit into a 1 kilo bag.

Just like excuses have appeal. What you described is an opportunity.

[jaguara5]

I see the thread is marked as 'noted." When did that happened? I had the assumption that "no more F-16 variants are planned" was ED's typucal response to those requests.  

[Exorcet]

31 minutes ago, jaguara5 said:

I see the thread is marked as 'noted." When did that happened? I had the assumption that "no more F-16 variants are planned" was ED's typucal response to those requests.  

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

[irisono]

Am 28.4.2024 um 20:33 schrieb exhausted:

Yes, but there would be a lot of appeal to make an F-16A as the Europeans received it. They adopted that variant as their own, produced it locally and had some special features, like the parachute housing.

It doesn't just take Europeans on board. The F-16A would open up far-reaching and fascinating possibilities for Cold War scenarios. Just think of ACM fights between the Viper and the Mig families from -21 to -29A. Or at QRAs against Bears and Badgers in the far north. Or the air duels over the Bekaa Valley in the Syria map. Just getting away from the Fox-3 orgies and the boring MFD finger typing.

[Evoman]

There was a big news announcement in relation to this thread made a few days ago. Heatblur has announced on their FB page that they will be working with IndiaFoxtEcho to bring the F-16A to MSFS. They stated that they currently do not have plans to bring it to DCS but they would be open to the possibility depending on the interest. So if you really want the F-16A to come to DCS now is your chance to make your desires known to Heatblur.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

Someone could link this thread up in a comment to that FB post, if that's not done already. Of course there's interest in HB-quality F-16A.  

[MAXsenna]

There was a big news announcement in relation to this thread made a few days ago. Heatblur has announced on their FB page that they will be working with IndiaFoxtEcho to bring the F-16A to MSFS. They stated that they currently do not have plans to bring it to DCS but they would be open to the possibility depending on the interest. So if you really want the F-16A to come to DCS now is your chance to make your desires known to Heatblur.
 
 

That's not an HB channel!

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Someone could link this thread up in a comment to that FB post, if that's not done already. Of course there's interest in HB-quality F-16A.  

Yes, link please. I'll show my interest right away!

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[MAXsenna]

Well, I did try to post in the both the HB and IFT Discords. No "officials" have replied. Only pessimists.

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[Evoman]

19 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

That's not an HB channel!

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Yes, link please. I'll show my interest right away!

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Sorry for the confusion. Its not on their channel. Here is the link to Heatblurs Facebook page.

 

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur

[Mig Fulcrum]

Can I bump up this thread?

I really want a F-16A block 10/15