SemiAutomatic countermeasures

[Elyos]

Hi. I set my countermeasure program 1 to fire only flares and program 2 to fire chaffs only. Set Semiautomatic mode to S/A1 (to fire flares incase of MANPAD or AA IR missiles fired at me). My understanding is that S/A and automatic modes choose the correct profile depending on the situation. F-18 can't detect IR threats but has RWR. My goal was to have a program with only flares and automatically switch to chaff program when locked and fired by SAM or aircraft with radar seeking missile. When I was locked and fired by SA10 I had to manually switch to S/A2(program with chaffs), It didn't switch to the correct program. With my understanding ALE-47 would select program 2 when I was locked by radar, because program 1 had no chaffs in it, but it didn't. What I'm doing wrong? Earlier I used default program 1 with 1 flare, 1 chaff but decreased repetition to 1. But it was wasting my countermeasures which hornet has few. And the point of getting two separate programs for IR and radar-based threats was not wasting them.

[Frederf]

Picking the program is a static association. If I see X threat I will pick Y program. If you change Y program the system will not understand that Y program is no longer suitable for threat X.

 

I recommend setting up a test mission getting shot at by different threats and find out what program number the system picks in different situations. Then alter the contents of those programs based on that.

[HILOK]

ohhh that is a very good idea! and if someone coincidentally has already done that, we would certainly all have much appreciation for that person sharing the results with the community 

[Foka]

And take inte acount that when you press countermeasures release switch aft it will trigger program selected by computer, but when you press it forward it will always trigger Program 5.

So leave Programs 1-4 in default settings and program #5 for flares only. Then S/A system will detect and choose right program for radar threat and you always have your flares under #5.

[dorianR666]

If i understood it correctly, S/A is using its own programs. Not the ones you program yourself.

[Frederf]

That would be an important but straightforward thing to test.

 

It should also be possible to lua edit the default programs.

[Scaley]

There are 3 Auto profiles in CMDS_ALE47.lua labelled as modern RF SAM, old RF SAM and IR SAM.  Quite how the system would ever know to select the IR one I don't know.  My assumption (not tested) is that semi-auto and auto modes will use these profiles, not 1 through 6

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

 

S/A and AUTO programs are pre-defined chaff programs based on the general radar type. They are not related to the MAN programs.

 

thank you

[diegoepoimaria01]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:35 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

 

S/A and AUTO programs are pre-defined chaff programs based on the general radar type. They are not related to the MAN programs.

 

thank you

Ohh, Many many thanks, that's VERY important info!

 

I'm trying to have a complete view of the system, and as of now, I've understood that:

 

 

• Disp. Switch "Bypass"

 

Forward    =>     2 Chaff

Aft             =>     2 Flares

Dispense  =>     No Action

 

 

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + MANUAL Mode:

                                  

Forward    =>     Program5                 

Aft             =>     Program X (selected)       

Dispense  =>      Seems to release 30 Flares and 40 Chaff.

 

 

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + SEMI AUTO Mode:

 

Forward    =>    Dispense consent ( type quantity and release interval decided by countermeasure system )

Aft             =>    Program X (selected)

Dispense  =>    Seems to release 30 Flares and 40 Chaff.

 

 

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + AUTO Mode:

 

System should do everything by himself ( type quantity and release interval decided by countermeasure system )

Forward    =>     No Action ?

Aft             =>     Program X (selected)

Dispense  =>     ???    

 

 

 

 

The "Dispense" button should be the wall mounted big red button. =>So, question is: what is the function of that button ?
30 Flares and 40 Chaff ? Isn't it a bit too mutch ?

I tought that the idea was to have a "panic button" to release something that covers every scenario ... but dropping all I think it's eccessive ... or am I missin something ?

 

I'll do some more tests, but as of now, I'm understanding that SEMI AUTO seems to be the best option, but how do I release just flares ?

EDIT: By using "AFT" ... that seems to be always for the selected program!

 

If anyone have some info, please, feel free to update the AMAZING explanation I've wrote before  ( ).

Edited February 25, 2021 by diegoepoimaria01

[Foka]

It's emergensy countermesures dispencer to drop all flares before emergency landing.

 

It's located on central console over Dispencer mode switch.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Foka

[Mnf]

• Disp. Switch "Bypass"

Forward    =>     2 Chaff

Aft             =>     2 Flares

Dispense  =>     No Action

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + MANUAL Mode:

Forward    =>     Program5                 

Aft             =>     Program X (selected)       

Dispense  =>      it is by default 2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + SEMI AUTO Mode:

Forward    =>    Dispense consent -When you locked by threat- ( type quantity and release interval decided by countermeasure system )

Aft             =>    Program X (selected)

Dispense  =>    it is by default 2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + AUTO Mode:

System should do everything by himself -When you locked by threat-  ( type quantity and release interval decided by countermeasure system )

Forward    =>     No Action ? Automatically work

Aft             =>     Program X (selected)

Dispense  =>     it is by default 2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval (if no lock, and do nothing if you locked by missile as countermeasure system start immediately)

 

The "Dispense" button should be the wall mounted big red button. =>So, question is: what is the function of that button ? it called the Panic Dispense button and it should be used when you don't know what kind of threat/missile fired on you.
30 Flares and 40 Chaff ? Isn't it a bit too much ? it is by default -2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval - but you can change it manually by editing Lua files "DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\FA-18C\Cockpit\Scripts\TEWS\device\CMDS_ALE47.lua"

-- MAN 6 - Wall Dispense button, Panic
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6] = {}
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["chaff"] = 2
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["flare"] = 2
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["intv"]  = 0.75
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["cycle"] = 20

change the numbers to customize the MAN 6 Panic button.

 

By using "AFT" ... that seems to be always for the selected program! Correct, and Forward is for Program 5 (Manual only) and to activate auto program in S/A mode.

SEMI AUTO seems to be the best option, but how do I release just flares ? you can do it by customizing one of MAN programs (Man1,Man2,Man3,Man4) to use flare only, and choose S/A(x), by pressing AFT the dispenser will dispense the program x selected that use only Flares, pressing Forward will activated the best program automatically (depends on the missile locking you) 

 

I usually use Manual Mode:

• MAN 6 (Panic) for flare only (1 or 2 flare 0.25 interval 3 or 4 times) as it give me a quick way to avoid any IR SAM, MANPADS that fires on me suddenly or against any other Russian IR missile in dogfights.
• MAN 5 for both Flare and Chaff to use it in any combat (specially in A2A) , this gives me the flexibility to not keep changing my programs MAN(1,2,3,4) in Manual mode.
• MAN (1,2,3,4) is customized for each threat, and I used them depend on the threat I'm expecting to face in the battel.

 

[diegoepoimaria01]

4 hours ago, Foka said:

It's emergensy countermesures dispencer to drop all flares before emergency landing.

 

It's located on central console over Dispencer mode switch.

 

Hi

No, it's the wall mounted big red button , not the all dump.

 

 

4 hours ago, mnf1980 said:

• Disp. Switch "Bypass"

Forward    =>     2 Chaff

Aft             =>     2 Flares

Dispense  =>     No Action

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + MANUAL Mode:

Forward    =>     Program5                 

Aft             =>     Program X (selected)       

Dispense  =>      it is by default 2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + SEMI AUTO Mode:

Forward    =>    Dispense consent -When you locked by threat- ( type quantity and release interval decided by countermeasure system )

Aft             =>    Program X (selected)

Dispense  =>    it is by default 2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval

 

• Disp. Switch "ON" + AUTO Mode:

System should do everything by himself -When you locked by threat-  ( type quantity and release interval decided by countermeasure system )

Forward    =>     No Action ? Automatically work

Aft             =>     Program X (selected)

Dispense  =>     it is by default 2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval (if no lock, and do nothing if you locked by missile as countermeasure system start immediately)

 

The "Dispense" button should be the wall mounted big red button. =>So, question is: what is the function of that button ? it called the Panic Dispense button and it should be used when you don't know what kind of threat/missile fired on you.
30 Flares and 40 Chaff ? Isn't it a bit too much ? it is by default -2 flare / 2 chaff /20 times / 0.75 seconds interval - but you can change it manually by editing Lua files "DCS World OpenBeta\Mods\aircraft\FA-18C\Cockpit\Scripts\TEWS\device\CMDS_ALE47.lua"

-- MAN 6 - Wall Dispense button, Panic
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6] = {}
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["chaff"] = 2
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["flare"] = 2
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["intv"]  = 0.75
programs[ProgramNames.MAN_6]["cycle"] = 20

change the numbers to customize the MAN 6 Panic button.

 

By using "AFT" ... that seems to be always for the selected program! Correct, and Forward is for Program 5 (Manual only) and to activate auto program in S/A mode.

SEMI AUTO seems to be the best option, but how do I release just flares ? you can do it by customizing one of MAN programs (Man1,Man2,Man3,Man4) to use flare only, and choose S/A(x), by pressing AFT the dispenser will dispense the program x selected that use only Flares, pressing Forward will activated the best program automatically (depends on the missile locking you) 

 

I usually use Manual Mode:

• MAN 6 (Panic) for flare only (1 or 2 flare 0.25 interval 3 or 4 times) as it give me a quick way to avoid any IR SAM, MANPADS that fires on me suddenly or against any other Russian IR missile in dogfights.
• MAN 5 for both Flare and Chaff to use it in any combat (specially in A2A) , this gives me the flexibility to not keep changing my programs MAN(1,2,3,4) in Manual mode.
• MAN (1,2,3,4) is customized for each threat, and I used them depend on the threat I'm expecting to face in the battel.

 

Thanks, that is a VERY exausitve explaining

 

Aft is VERY useful, and I now see the importance of Semi Auto ... Everything that is Chaff is handled by the computer, and with the appropriate (best) program too!

Everyting else is either Aft ( so I think I'll set like some Flares and no Chaff ) or panic button ( and I think I'll set Panic like 1 Flare and 1 Chaff at least, to cover all the bases ).

 

I don't understand why the default panic is so mutch chaff and flares tough ... I mean, it totally depletes the Hornet's Flares ... it does not makes sense ... what is the rationale behind that ?

 

 

Also, and that is a very difficult question, what is the correct Flare pattern?

Or every missile treath has it's own ?

 

Also, I've read that Harriers in desert storm did use a flare pattern during ingress and egress , to cover from manpads, and that there was some debate wheter to use flares on ingress, because it might alert enemy troops on the ground.

What do you use ?

Or, better, do you user flares preventively OR just if there's a missile coming to you ?

 

 

Thanks, I still have a lots of questions, but now I feel way more secure with the ALE-47 (all the questions now are just about how to best use it, not just how to use it ) many many thanks again.

[Mnf]

Choosing the pattern must be based on the battlefield and the threat you expect there.

You can use a flare program of 4/5 seconds intervals cycled 10 times for example to ingress above an area where you expect a manpads, this will give you about 40/50 seconds cover over that area.

You still need another program to dispense flares when IR missiles coming you side.

I found that using MAN6 or 5 as flare program gives me a quick way to respond to IR threat.

At the end you can have 3 programs ready to use anytime -MAN5, MAN6- and any other MAN (1-4) in manual or S/A

For example, bombing an airfield using unguided bombs where manpad are highly expected, you can use one program for IR missile coming to you, other program to flare continuously, and the third program with chaff for example if you expect enemy airplanes in the area.

[Svend_Dellepude]

If you haven't seen it, this tool will let you manage all CMS programs

 

[diegoepoimaria01]

20 hours ago, Svend_Dellepude said:

If you haven't seen it, this tool will let you manage all CMS programs

 

 

OOohh, cool, thaks, I'll try it

[Smashy]

On 2/25/2021 at 12:03 PM, mnf1980 said:

I usually use Manual Mode:

• MAN 6 (Panic) for flare only (1 or 2 flare 0.25 interval 3 or 4 times) as it give me a quick way to avoid any IR SAM, MANPADS that fires on me suddenly or against any other Russian IR missile in dogfights.
• MAN 5 for both Flare and Chaff to use it in any combat (specially in A2A) , this gives me the flexibility to not keep changing my programs MAN(1,2,3,4) in Manual mode.
• MAN (1,2,3,4) is customized for each threat, and I used them depend on the threat I'm expecting to face in the battel.

 

 

I finally got around to playing with the ALE-47 and think that manual is the best for me too.  At first I thought S/A would be the best but I ran into a couple of problems:

• with an advanced threat like the SA-10, S/A mode pumps out chaff at a high rate and will continue to do so until lock is broken.  I found that my chaff was depleted fairly quickly when approaching an SA-10 site.  It's easy to grant consent to dispense earlier than intended when the RWR is deedle-deedling at you and you see that solid "10" line on you.  
• while dispensing in S/A mode I found I can interrupt chaff f I press the forward dispense switch.  However, pressing forward dispense switch will not do anything until I cycle the ALE-47 mode through AUTO, MAN and back to S/A.  This was pretty easy to do in the heat of battle and less than optimal for obvious reasons

I also tested AUTO mode and found it to be too wasteful of my expendables.

 

I'm still playing around with my manual programs but so far have this:

• MAN 1 flare (one flare, 0.75 second interval, 4 times)
• MAN 5 chaff (same as above)
• still trying to decide on program settings for MAN 2, 3, 4, 6.  I'll likely configure MAN 6 to dispense both flare and chaff and assign it somewhere to my HOTAS

BTW, using the ASPJ with expendables really seemed to increase survivability.  Not really an objective test, but I was able to defeat 8 of 11 SA-10 missile shots at me from various ranges.  With the ASPJ off, my success rate was much lower.

[Raptor9]

So I was running some tests for developing my own CMDS manual programs, and I wanted to test the behavior of the Semi-Auto.  What I don't understand is why the Semi-Automatic mode in the F-18 will continuously dispense the program REPEATEDLY until either the threat system no longer has the aircraft locked, or the player cycles the mode through AUTO and then to STBY.  I would think the methodology would be that Semi-Auto selects the program, but the pilot has to command it to dispense each individual program, not giving blanket consent to keep emptying the dispensers until completely out of chaff.  If I wanted to do that, I would just switch it to AUTO and let it run constantly.

 

For instance, in the .lua file the "Auto 1" program is 4x chaff with 1.5 seconds between each single chaff.  In semi-automatic mode, shouldn't I press the dispense button, and it dispenses 4x chaff, and then STOPS until I command it to fire off another program of 4x chaff?  This way I can time each 4x chaff program with each of my beaming turns, which is the only way chaff is even effective in DCS.

 

Btw, in case anyone is wondering, these are the programs selected for each threat (there may be more, but I only tested the below systems):
Auto 1: SA-2, SA-3, ZSU-23-4

Auto 2: SA-6, SA-8

Auto 3: SA-10, SA-11, SA-15

[Bunny Clark]

5 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

In semi-automatic mode, shouldn't I press the dispense button, and it dispenses 4x chaff, and then STOPS until I command it to fire off another program of 4x chaff?

I've always wondered the same thing. It makes sense to me that it would work the way you describe as well, but I have no real world documentation on the CMDS system to back up that hunch. 

 

Maybe not though. I generally feel like the way DCS players use expendable countermeasures may not relate very closely to reality, but of course no one with real world experience is really willing to talk about that sort of thing.  

[Frederf]

In F-16:

 

In semi/auto there is no dispense button. There is a consent button (CMS down). In semi consent is given for every defensive engagement and auto it's given for all engagements. Rescind consent with CMS right). Semi should repeat dispensing the program over and over until the threat ceases once given consent.

Pressing CMS up in any mode (man/semi/auto) simply runs that manual program (1,2,3,4) as set.

As far as I'm aware none of the semi/auto stuff is functioning at all yet, i.e. it's impossible to dispense anything but the 5 manual programs (and bypass).

 

In F-18 it probably works the same, repeating program until threat is over.

[Jenson]

I guess in real world, there's no such thing as "save your chaff/flares", but only "save your ass". Once being locked or fired at, choose a program (either s/a or man) that continuously release 10 or even 20 chaff/flares while you maneuver to escape. In most cases, stay alive and preserve the aircraft is priority over strike tasks, while in game, we can do all the bold moves that a real fighter pilot refrains to do. I guess... 

[maxTRX]

9 hours ago, Jenson said:

I guess in real world, there's no such thing as "save your chaff/flares", but only "save your ass". Once being locked or fired at, choose a program (either s/a or man) that continuously release 10 or even 20 chaff/flares while you maneuver to escape. In most cases, stay alive and preserve the aircraft is priority over strike tasks, while in game, we can do all the bold moves that a real fighter pilot refrains to do. I guess... 

 

In a nutshell... I got so used to pumping chaff and flares manually, it's muscle memory now. In my Lockon days, 'mowing grass' was a valid tactic even flying a A/A mission. In some chaotic battles online, with 2 or 3 radar missiles heading for me... there was always a chance a heater would sneak in . So, my left thumb had a mind of its own.  A few chaff, behind the hill, couple of flares, back for the hill, hehe. 

[Raptor9]

10 hours ago, Jenson said:

I guess in real world, there's no such thing as "save your chaff/flares", but only "save your ass". Once being locked or fired at, choose a program (either s/a or man) that continuously release 10 or even 20 chaff/flares while you maneuver to escape. In most cases, stay alive and preserve the aircraft is priority over strike tasks, while in game, we can do all the bold moves that a real fighter pilot refrains to do. I guess... 

 

Don't get me wrong, I get that if you don't survive the current engagement by a hostile weapon system it doesn't matter how many chaff you have remaining in your buckets.  But it's not about making bold moves in a video game, it's about performing a set of coordinated defensive maneuvers to beam the radar, and having more precise control over when to start and stop countermeasures dispense.
 

10 hours ago, Frederf said:

In F-16:

In semi/auto there is no dispense button. There is a consent button (CMS down). In semi consent is given for every defensive engagement and auto it's given for all engagements. Rescind consent with CMS right). Semi should repeat dispensing the program over and over until the threat ceases once given consent.

Pressing CMS up in any mode (man/semi/auto) simply runs that manual program (1,2,3,4) as set.

As far as I'm aware none of the semi/auto stuff is functioning at all yet, i.e. it's impossible to dispense anything but the 5 manual programs (and bypass).

 

In F-18 it probably works the same, repeating program until threat is over.

 

No I get that, I just expected the semi-auto mode to request consent for each individual program, not consent for the duration of the engagement.  But if that's how it's supposed to be in the F/A-18 (and the F-16 when it gets similar CMDS functions) so be it.  I have no issues with manual programs; the semi-auto logic just caught me off-guard when it kept going and going and gone like the Energizer bunny, and I have no way to stop the program like I do in the A-10C.  It's frustrating when there isn't yet a lot of documentation to explain system behaviors on the same level of other aircraft modules.