reported F-117A get locked and fired by Tor, SA-6 and other SAMs!

[Raviar]

As the title says it, I believe that shouldn't happen!

[Flappie]

That should't, indeed. But it already has.

I believe the game's SAMs are seeing the F-117 later than non-stealth aircraft. Do you have a track?

[agamemnon_b5]

Well, the Serbians shot one down with an SA-3 so anything is within the realm of possibilities.

Edited February 9, 2021 by agamemnon_b5

[Glow]

Is it gear up or down? Weapon hatches opened or closed? In Serbia bird get shot 'cos of that, so maybe we have this as a feature now.

[agamemnon_b5]

Hatches were partially the issue.  The Air Force never bothered to change anything about the flight routes being flown.  They also decided to fly without Prowler support.  Underestimation of the Serbians probably played a part.

 

Complacency got the F-117 shot down.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theaviationgeekclub.com/an-in-depth-analysis-of-how-serbs-were-able-to-shoot-down-an-f-117-stealth-fighter-during-operation-allied-force/amp/

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by agamemnon_b5

[Raviar]

I know about the story behind Serbian who shoot down the F-117, that is not the case, I believe DCS is way way far from those complex real situation, in a matter of physics, Airfoils, Aerodynamics, Radar waves, ground clutters, ECM, encryption and many more ...

 

It was level flying F-117 at angels 5 without any armament, weapon hold ROE, ECM always (on and off, both tried out) and it is simply immortal by default in some level, the reason is it will get lock and fire upon by SA-6 or Tor .. and after multiple heat it will crash.

I believe it would be easy test for everyone who wants to take look at it so i didn't provide any track file or sample mission.

 

I had a mission which I intended to simulated the desert storm night mission when AAA got engaged and was firing blindly, I had to put some slow moving targets for them to open a fire, like L-39 ( i prefer not to use heli because of flight level) however because of obvious all the SAMs start to engage with those L-39, so I decided to put F-117 however after testing F-117 the SAMs start engaging.

 

side notes: if you try to lock the F-117 by air to air radar that would not be possible ( i tested it last time on 2018 with hornet) as it define to has a very tiny RCS in its lua config file;

the next important question would be " DOES the SAMs in DCS detect Airplane base on RCS or there wouldnt be any difference between C-130 and Viper " ?!

[Flappie]

41 minutes ago, mani.zaeim said:

the next important question would be " DOES the SAMs in DCS detect Airplane base on RCS or there wouldnt be any difference between C-130 and Viper " ?!

If you want to find out, create a mission and test. Then attach a track if you find something that bothers you. That's how it works.

[Raviar]

Here is the attachment F-117.trkF-117 Test.miz

[Glow]

I think SA-6 can acquired target optically too. Probably on much shorter distances (14km by the Wikipedia).

 

After looking at your mission:

You rally have to research the subject before you start typing those topics.

- read about F117 and first stealth technology and propaganda/marketing

- set missions at night

- turn off radar, radio transmissions, limit after burner, etc.

- set a plane behind detection range - yellow circles

 

I manage to get 5km to target at AGL1500ft before Tor start shooting. I consider this very accurate for a simulation.

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Glow

[Raviar]

i dont believe the SA-6 or tor can lock on F-117 at all

[Glow]

Yes, I notice. You believe that F117 is invisible.

[BIGNEWY]

We are checking the F-117 rcs 

 

Please also note some SAM's have command guidance or optical abilities. 

 

thanks

[Hammer1-1]

The F-117 has to have a RCS disco ball attached to it when flying in known traffic patterns outside of a combat arena so it could be tracked. The only time you should be able to see an F-117 on radar is when this is installed on the aircraft, when the landing gear is down and locked, when the bomb bays are open and bombs are on the way down....its significantly smaller than a bird, so no it shouldnt be picked up at all. The belgrade shootdown was one of luck, complacency, lack of support aircraft and intelligence of when the aircraft was taking off. Also the radar on the SAM was modified in such a way that it IIRC could track at 15nm, and placing it exactly where it needed to be and then turning it on when it needed to be turned on so not to alert the pilot of its presence until the last minute...

 

If some of you think that its accurate enough, you would think that if that were the case then all of them should have been shot down during the 1st Gulf War where similar SAM units were operating.

[Ironhand]

This goes all the way back to FC1.x. SAMs have always had a long look at the stealth aircraft. When it was just the Caucasus map, no one used it for much of anything. So it was never a big deal.

[Cmptohocah]

10 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

The F-117 has to have a RCS disco ball attached to it when flying in known traffic patterns outside of a combat arena so it could be tracked. The only time you should be able to see an F-117 on radar is when this is installed on the aircraft, when the landing gear is down and locked, when the bomb bays are open and bombs are on the way down....its significantly smaller than a bird, so no it shouldnt be picked up at all. The belgrade shootdown was one of luck, complacency, lack of support aircraft and intelligence of when the aircraft was taking off. Also the radar on the SAM was modified in such a way that it IIRC could track at 15nm, and placing it exactly where it needed to be and then turning it on when it needed to be turned on so not to alert the pilot of its presence until the last minute...

 

If some of you think that its accurate enough, you would think that if that were the case then all of them should have been shot down during the 1st Gulf War where similar SAM units were operating.

Similar SAM units yes, but what about the operators? It's not the same having two sets of crew with different experience, training, etc. If it was that good, F-117 would still be in service. That's really a general problem we are having in DCS. Everyone is hooked on what the NATO sources states the capabilities are. Luckily we have RL to show us that this is not always the case.
Mind you that the exact same SAM battery, shot down an F-16C and unofficially shot down a B-2 bomber. I would say it says a lot about the crew capabilities.

[Raviar]

@BIGNEWY
Thanks, but I believe probably there would be an issue with IR signature and RCS, comparing the SAMs in DCS to the reallity, the DCS SAMs and Manpads are much deadlier, would be related to the IR signature and RCS? appreciate it if IR signature and RCS from Manpads and SAMs point of view can get review specially on their effectiveness in comparison to chaff/flare from different modules

Edited February 11, 2021 by mani.zaeim

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Cmptohocah said:

Similar SAM units yes, but what about the operators? It's not the same having two sets of crew with different experience, training, etc. If it was that good, F-117 would still be in service. That's really a general problem we are having in DCS. Everyone is hooked on what the NATO sources states the capabilities are. Luckily we have RL to show us that this is not always the case.
Mind you that the exact same SAM battery, shot down an F-16C and unofficially shot down a B-2 bomber. I would say it says a lot about the crew capabilities.

What makes you think they unofficially retired it? They still fly. Also, the statistics are vastly in favor of stealth having actually worked and still working today, as I think the casualty/success ratio are more than offset to call it successful technology. That shootdown took a LOT of planning; probably in the years if you count all the man hours combined.

[Cmptohocah]

9 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

What makes you think they unofficially retired it? They still fly. Also, the statistics are vastly in favor of stealth having actually worked and still working today, as I think the casualty/success ratio are more than offset to call it successful technology. That shootdown took a LOT of planning; probably in the years if you count all the man hours combined.

I think you miss-read the part about the B-2: the crew claimed that they have shot down a B-2 bomber, but this was never confirmed (officially). F-117A was taken out of service couple of years latter.

 

My point was that if it was not for this shot, we would probably never be able say: "Hey, this thing can be brought down - in special circumstances." We would follow the official statements of the manufacturer and that would be it. The entire forum is full of these kind of discussions that stem from these kind of claims of abilities.

You mentioned a lot of planning. Yes of course, the system they have used was developed in the 1960's. And it's an inherently static system, so of course they had to put in extra effort. The USAF was complacent, sure, but combine that with a resourceful crew on the Serbian side and many interesting things can happen.

 

When it comes to statistics, I would like to use  a very common anecdote: "Statistics is like a bikini. It reveals a lot, but doesn't show anything." Statistically speaking F-15C against MiG-29A has a 100% success rate in combat.

[Hammer1-1]

The F-117 is still flying today. Thats not an untrue statement either. Plus your analogy on the F-15 vs Mig-29 is kind of irrelevant; it may have a 100% success kill ratio, but an F-15 pilot has to work for it, not to mention that the statistics show that the F-117 successfully proved itself against the SA2 on more than one occasion. That nighthawk pilot wasnt exactly working; all he had to do was sit there, let the autopilot do its job, pickle some bombs and go home while sipping some coffee. Complacency is what ultimately shot down the F-117 and thats a fact. You know what would be a great analogy compared to this? Assassinating a sitting president who sends the Secret Service home that day. Thats basically the amount of work that went into shooting down the nighthawk in Belgrade; it was a meticulously planned event coupled with the USAF being too comfortable flying the same route at the same time every day for a number of weeks/months before someone with some skill took notice. Its like playing Hitman: you can kill anyone if you follow them long enough and learn their patterns.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[Cmptohocah]

5 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

The F-117 is still flying today. Thats not an untrue statement either. Plus your analogy on the F-15 vs Mig-29 is kind of irrelevant; it may have a 100% success kill ratio, but an F-15 pilot has to work for it, not to mention that the statistics show that the F-117 successfully proved itself against the SA2 on more than one occasion. That nighthawk pilot wasnt exactly working; all he had to do was sit there, let the autopilot do its job, pickle some bombs and go home while sipping some coffee. Complacency is what ultimately shot down the F-117 and thats a fact. You know what would be a great analogy compared to this? Assassinating a sitting president who sends the Secret Service home that day. Thats basically the amount of work that went into shooting down the nighthawk in Belgrade; it was a meticulously planned event coupled with the USAF being too comfortable flying the same route at the same time every day for a number of weeks/months before someone with some skill took notice. Its like playing Hitman: you can kill anyone if you follow them long enough and learn their patterns.

 

Sorry you are right.

Nighthawk is still actively in service and the only reason why it was shot down is because USAF let it be shot down. Also, no SAM in DCS should be able to hit it.

[Hammer1-1]

6 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Sorry you are right.

Nighthawk is still actively in service and the only reason why it was shot down is because USAF let it be shot down. Also, no SAM in DCS should be able to hit it 99% of the time. Should be closer to .5% of the time.

Fixed it for you.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Hammer1-1