in progress So, no flight model update for the F-16 in the 2.7 patch?

[SCPanda]

The flight model update was the thing I was most excited for, I didn't really care about the new clouds since it's just eye candy for me. According to the patch notes, it seems it didn't make in the 2.7 patch. Jet also felt the same and loses energy too fast which is the same as in 2.5. 

 

Also, when are they gonna finish that ugly looking "navy wasp"? Such a struggle waiting for ED to get the F-18 out of EA so they can finally put some effort on the F-16. 

[TobiasA]

According to the patch note, yes... But I could swear it has changed. It holds the nose up longer during landing and is less bitchy on higher AOA's, more stable during landing approach.
And then there is this:

 

I don't know. I didn't research that really, I have no hard numbers to compare. Either I'm getting used to it or they changed it.

But: The clean viper probably won't change a lot. Try carrying stores.

Something changed, because having the nose up at 75kts was something that didn't happen before. But maybe they changed other factors affecting what I feel.

Edited April 15, 2021 by TobiasA

[Rhinozherous]

Also have the feeling that landings are way smoother now when using aerodynamic breaking - holding the nose up as long as possible.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi,

 

we decided to hold it as we were not yet satisfied 

 

thanks

[SCPanda]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi,

 

we decided to hold it as we were not yet satisfied 

 

thanks

Thank you for letting us know and keeping the high standards! I will try to patient with the F-16. Could you please provide an estimate on when the Hornet will be out of EA? Thx

[b0bl00i]

8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi,

 

we decided to hold it as we were not yet satisfied 

 

thanks

 

Hi BIGNEWY, thanks for keeping us updated.

We are eager to get the Viper updated and flying like it should. Can you please reveal some details about the Vipers performance tuning related to BFM? It doesn't really live up to the performance I've come to understood from stories, books, videos and interviews and other sims I played during the years.

 

Also, can you include some details on the Viper roadmap this year? We've waited a long time for this baby to get some goodies.

Thanks.

 

 

[ruddy122]

The F-16 module is rewarding to get well but could easily kill you if you are sloppy.

If you are on speed on landing it’s a dream if not it’s a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum

Taxiing is always a challenge

Keep your A-game at all times when flying the viper

Unfortunately no FPM updates till the Hornet is out of EA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[feipan]

At least giving us a WIP with better flight performance now is better with the disappointing WIP we have now. We already have to cope with it for almost 2 years.

[BIGNEWY]

Sorry all, I appreciate it is a long time, but early access can take years. 

 

Our plan is to have the hornet out of early access soon, then we can put even more resources into the viper. 

 

Our viper team are actively working on the new munitions for a future update but as with the flight model work I can give no ETA currently. 

 

your patience is appreciated during early access, we know it is a long process. 

 

thanks 

[Falconeer]

10 hours ago, feipan said:

At least giving us a WIP with better flight performance now is better with the disappointing WIP we have now. We already have to cope with it for almost 2 years.

Simple solution... don't buy early access than

Edited April 16, 2021 by Falconeer

[TAW_Blaze]

46 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

Simple solution... don't buy easy access than

 

Viper FM is not even in an approximate ballpark of accuracy since 2 years. You basically cannot employ it to the designed operational BFM criteria, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose in any dogfight against a dissimilar opponent. Your ace up the sleeve should be best in the league turn rate and energy capability. Instead the aircraft is basically the worst in both of these when compared to 15/18 or flanker family.

 

So what exactly is early access then? Can you release a 3d model of an F-22 with nav modes and the flight model of a biplane and call it a day for the next 3 years?

 

Edit: tl; dr my problem is not that the Viper FM is not 100% accurate. But rather that in relative terms to other DCS modules it is so bad in BFM performance that it pretty much cannot compete at all with the other contemporary fighters. Meanwhile the module itself is sold on the premise that it is one of the best dogfighters of it's era.

Edited April 16, 2021 by 104th_Blaze

[TobiasA]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

Sorry all, I appreciate it is a long time, but early access can take years. 

 

Our plan is to have the hornet out of early access soon, then we can put even more resources into the viper. 

 

Our viper team are actively working on the new munitions for a future update but as with the flight model work I can give no ETA currently. 

 

your patience is appreciated during early access, we know it is a long process. 

 

thanks 

I personally would appreciate the FM updates before the addition of new weapons that are forbidden on some multiplayer servers either way. Just my two cents. 

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, TobiasA said:

I personally would appreciate the FM updates before the addition of new weapons that are forbidden on some multiplayer servers either way. Just my two cents. 

 

weapons devs are not flight model devs, they have separate work loads

 

thanks

[TobiasA]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

 

weapons devs are not flight model devs, they have separate work loads

 

thanks

That's a pity, but I understand that. Thank you for the explanation, it makes waiting a little bit easier. 

[BIGNEWY]

3 minutes ago, TobiasA said:

That's a pity, but I understand that. Thank you for the explanation, it makes waiting a little bit easier. 

 

No problem, we will keep you all informed as soon as we have new progress. 

 

thanks

[Falconeer]

27 minutes ago, 104th_Blaze said:

Meanwhile the module itself is sold on the premise that it is one of the best dogfighters of it's era.

 

It doesn't state it anywhere...

 

Steam and DCS Webshop: "Few other aircraft can match its versatility, maneuverability, firepower, and huge production numbers."

 

However, it's still a work in progress and this is the part people seem to forget all the time. 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Falconeer

[TAW_Blaze]

32 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

It doesn't state it anywhere...

 

Steam and DCS Webshop: "Few other aircraft can match its versatility, maneuverability, firepower, and huge production numbers."

 

However, it's still a work in progress and this is the part people seem to forget all the time. 

 

 

 

It does not have to be stated anywhere. DCS is advertised as one of the highest fidelity study sims, especially when it comes to flight modeling. One of the key features of this aircraft is being an excellent dogfighter, commonly considered as "the best" of it's era, especially compared to the other american teen fighters. Therefore a lot of users are interested in exploring it's fighting capabilities according what is known by various real life accounts and other sims.

 

From my point of view it's unacceptable to sell a product even in early access that fails to deliver on one of the most important defining characteristics of the airframe.

[Sideburns]

1 hour ago, Falconeer said:

Simple solution... don't buy easy access than

 

Yup, it wasn't reasonable at all for people to expect faster progress on the Viper. Particularly given it was initially stated that the Viper and Hornet teams were separate, a statement later rescinded. I think most people who bought early access Viper were aware it was early access, what wasn't clear was just how early access the Viper was and what rate features would appear.

 

But in your defence I think there are a growing number of people who no longer buy EA, myself included. It is good to see clearer EA functionality statements from ED (a'la the Hind), but they still lack accurate timelines. I now try to enjoy DCS for what it is, rather than what it is promised to be, and submit bug reports where I can. But in the same sentence I won't be spending more money on DCS generally* until there is a consistent improvement in delivery.

 

*Except Heatblur, they have slipped on some promises but generally have produced exceptional products, handling the community comments and feedback very gracefully.

[SCPanda]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

weapons devs are not flight model devs, they have separate work loads

 

thanks

Thanks for the info BIGNEWY. Also it's good to know that there are devs dedicated to work on the flight model. Please send them my best regards! It's better to get it right then get it quick but incorrect. We all have high hope on Viper performing like it does in real life. A deadly dogfighter! 

Edited April 16, 2021 by SCPanda

[BIGNEWY]

thanks appreciate the support. 

 

The team will get there, but early access does take time. 

 

Also regarding flight models, its real world data that matters, other sims may be great but they are not a source we will use. 

 

thanks

[TobiasA]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Sideburns:

 

Yup, it wasn't reasonable at all for people to expect faster progress on the Viper. Particularly given it was initially stated that the Viper and Hornet teams were separate, a statement later rescinded. I think most people who bought early access Viper were aware it was early access, what wasn't clear was just how early access the Viper was and what rate features would appear.

 

But in your defence I think there are a growing number of people who no longer buy EA, myself included. It is good to see clearer EA functionality statements from ED (a'la the Hind), but they still lack accurate timelines. I now try to enjoy DCS for what it is, rather than what it is promised to be, and submit bug reports where I can. But in the same sentence I won't be spending more money on DCS generally* until there is a consistent improvement in delivery.

 

*Except Heatblur, they have slipped on some promises but generally have produced exceptional products, handling the community comments and feedback very gracefully.

 

If Heatblur brings another module, I'll be right on track. The one reason I don't have the tomcat right now is that I don't have the time to learn so many modules at once and the tomcat is rather complex. It'll follow one day.

 

If none of you buys EA, then we won't see any nice modules anymore. That's the price I am willing to pay, but I also want to see some progress on the module, since the viper is the module that really brought me to DCS. The one big thing on DCS (for me) is the large playerbase, easy to access multiplayer missions and a ton of cool modules to fly. I got hooked with helicopters, really looking forward for the apache. I will most likely preorder it if the viper sees some progress in terms of AG radar and flight model.
Open and honest information is always appreciated. Just give us a rough roadmap, on which we know that things can change. I even don't need a timeframe, but a few informations about the planned features would be cool- what will happen in the next update, what is the plan, reasons for stuff not being in the next update, big features in the making...
So we as the people who bought EA know what happens (and that something happens). And it would be cool if there was a video on how they research the flight model. Because... aerodynamics... I'm not saying I like math, but I like physics and stuff. And I like insights in technical stuff. And I bet a lot of the virtual viper drivers do.

[TAW_Blaze]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

thanks appreciate the support. 

 

The team will get there, but early access does take time. 

 

Also regarding flight models, its real world data that matters, other sims may be great but they are not a source we will use. 

 

thanks

 

If other DCS modules are also developed according to the same real world data then it cannot be that you are clearly losing in BFM setups against other aircraft types, i.e. the Hornet when accordig to various testimonies of IRL fighter pilots you should be winning. So either the Viper FM is incorrectly modeled, or the Hornet FM is incorrectly modeled, or a combination of both. I'm not even talking of complex BFM setups, but really simple flat 2c rate fights. In a significant portion of the Mach range you should be flat out winning, especially at around M0.8 yet the Hornet basically has competitive or better turn rates.

 

Don't get me wrong I appreciate the work that goes into it. But what is the user supposed to do in a jet that has 2 major regions of BFM, 1 where you're supposed to lose and 1 where you're supposed to win, and instead you are borderline automatically losing in both?

[BIGNEWY]

1 minute ago, 104th_Blaze said:

 

If other DCS modules are also developed according to the same real world data then it cannot be that you are clearly losing in BFM setups against other aircraft types, i.e. the Hornet when accordig to various testimonies of IRL fighter pilots you should be winning. So either the Viper FM is incorrectly modeled, or the Hornet FM is incorrectly modeled, or a combination of both. I'm not even talking of complex BFM setups, but really simple flat 2c rate fights. In a significant portion of the Mach range you should be flat out winning, especially at around M0.8 yet the Hornet basically has competitive or better turn rates.

 

Don't get me wrong I appreciate the work that goes into it. But what is the user supposed to do in a jet that has 2 major regions of BFM, 1 where you're supposed to lose and 1 where you're supposed to win, and instead you are borderline automatically losing in both?

 

We do use SME feedback of course, the real pilots out there will help where they can. 

Both the viper and the hornet are undergoing flight dynamic reviews, I would suggest continue to be patient until we are happy to share the tweaks with you all. 

 

thank you

[TAW_Blaze]

2 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

We do use SME feedback of course, the real pilots out there will help where they can. 

Both the viper and the hornet are undergoing flight dynamic reviews, I would suggest continue to be patient until we are happy to share the tweaks with you all. 

 

thank you

 

Looking forward to it.

[Datajack]

Thank you to BIGNEWY and all the developers for their hard work!