Viper Flight Model Changes

[Burt]

What can we expect in the future Flight Model changes for the Viper in the next few updates, does anybody know anything about whats brewing ?

 

Thanks

[-Relax-]

Did they someting on the flight-model with the last patch?

I noticed new sound, but even more it feels much more stiff than before. Dont realy like it to be honest.

 

If it´s closer how it handle in real life it´s fine and i just need get used to it, but any else feels less comfortable and finde it a little weired to fly now?

[SCPanda]

5 hours ago, -Relax- said:

Did they someting on the flight-model with the last patch?

I noticed new sound, but even more it feels much more stiff than before. Dont realy like it to be honest.

 

If it´s closer how it handle in real life it´s fine and i just need get used to it, but any else feels less comfortable and finde it a little weired to fly now?

No FM change in the last patch. 

[Spartan111sqn]

it is very weird, the available g, and also the drag due to alpha is not as RL, we wait until the updte the FM accordingly

[SCPanda]

19 hours ago, Spartan111sqn said:

it is very weird, the available g, and also the drag due to alpha is not as RL, we wait until the updte the FM accordingly

Yeah all the things you said are basically broken on the current FM. Viper flies like a brick. It sure can go fast and high but it can't turn. 

[Syndrome]

2 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

Yeah all the things you said are basically broken on the current FM. Viper flies like a brick. It sure can go fast and high but it can't turn. 

 

Yeah, it was pretty disappointing.  I check it every few months, but stopped flying it for these reasons.  It's been so long, I forgot how to do even simple stuff in the cockpit. 

[b0bl00i]

I really hope the fix the flight model, it flies like a pig, no where agile enough and it feels very draggy. Roll rate it slow, it bleeds speed way to easy, it does not climb very well either.

G onset is very slow and low speed handling feels way off.

 

[Versor]

Revised FM for Viper was supposed to be included in a previous update. ED informed about this. I did my simple turn rate tests comparing F-16 to F-18 and for me F-18 is a better ratefighter than Viper. And much more better point fighter. We fly from time to time with friends and we make some dogfight F-16 vs F-18. The F-18 pilots only say - "poor Viper pilots they don't have any chance"

And one more think - how JF-17 (AI - ACE) is sitting on my six all the time and he is even faster than me while i'm doing 500-600 knots with 8-9 G in F-16?

Edited June 22, 2021 by Versor

[karasawa]

We can confirm at around 500km/h the turn rate in F-16 DCS is about 15% lower than that in real life.

[Rain]

Shouldn't a Viper come out on top in a sustained turn fight against a hornet?

[Spurts]

28 minutes ago, Rain said:

Shouldn't a Viper come out on top in a sustained turn fight against a hornet?

Common misunderstanding that this is always true. 

 

The F/A-18C modeled in DCS with the -402 motors will match the sustained turn rate of a Block 50 Viper also modeled in DCS when both are clean and at lower altitudes.  

 

Now, the current Viper bleeds speed too quickly when turning above the sustained turn rate and the sustained turn rate is too low at low speeds.

[SCPanda]

15 hours ago, Versor said:

Revised FM for Viper was supposed to be included in a previous update. ED informed about this. I did my simple turn rate tests comparing F-16 to F-18 and for me F-18 is a better ratefighter than Viper. And much more better point fighter. We fly from time to time with friends and we make some dogfight F-16 vs F-18. The F-18 pilots only say - "poor Viper pilots they don't have any chance"

And one more think - how JF-17 (AI - ACE) is sitting on my six all the time and he is even faster than me while i'm doing 500-600 knots with 8-9 G in F-16?

 

Hornet's FM is getting reworked as well. Its FM is overperforming at the moment. 

 

In DCS, JF rates better than the Viper and also is better at one circle. Also AI FM is simple FM. In other words, AI cheats. But it doesn't matter since a human pilot flying the JF will beat you easily as well. Viper doesn't stand a chance against any 4th gen fighter in DCS. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by SCPanda

[SCPanda]

11 hours ago, Spurts said:

Common misunderstanding that this is always true. 

 

The F/A-18C modeled in DCS with the -402 motors will match the sustained turn rate of a Block 50 Viper also modeled in DCS when both are clean and at lower altitudes.  

 

Now, the current Viper bleeds speed too quickly when turning above the sustained turn rate and the sustained turn rate is too low at low speeds.

Proof? Paddle or not paddle? 

 

With 7.5 G limit. I doubt the hornet can match a Viper pulling 9 Gs. 

[13WELT_JankeS]

It is very sad that the fighter that has always seemed to me number one in dogfight - in DCS which is supposed to be a flight simulator - the F-16 has been waiting so long for the correct flight model, which in fact is its most important feature...

[Ватрушка]

21.06.2021 в 16:07, SCPanda сказал:

No FM change in the last patch. 

https://dcs.silver.ru/70,66

Edited June 23, 2021 by Ватрушка

[Versor]

WOW! Great think. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Versor

[Spurts]

9 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Proof? Paddle or not paddle? 

 

With 7.5 G limit. I doubt the hornet can match a Viper pulling 9 Gs. 

the Viper best sustained turn rate does not occur at 9G.  And as far as turn rates go 7.5G at lower speed can easily equal or exceed 9G at higher speed and have a smaller radius to boot. That is simply the geometry of a turn. 

 

As for proof, the proof is in a document that compares a Super Hornet to a -402 Hornet that gives a peak sustained turn rate for a listed altitude, load, and fuel state.  I then take that over to the Viper flight manual and look up the corresponding altitude, load, and fuel state.  

 

And using the paddle will not increase sustained turn rate, ever.

[karasawa]

That is also a function of altitude.

 

At around 3000m (10000 feet), the viper has its best sustained turn rate at Mach 0.9, which is slightly higher than that at sea level.

 

I strongly recommend doing 2 circle fight at around 10000 feet because at this altitude the viper suffers less from blackout. You can easily outturn a jeff, a fulcrum, or a hornet in a 2C fight as long as you stick to its optimal Mach number. Example: at 10000 ft and correct speed, the viper sustains 1.2deg/sec higher than the fulcrum. You are free to test it in DCS 2.7

Edited June 23, 2021 by karasawa

[feipan]

Dogfights are not artificial 2 circle fights at 10.000ft. Any opponent will just low yo-yo and shoot out of the sky while you perfectly maintain your turn rate at altitude.

Edited June 24, 2021 by feipan

[Theodore42]

4 hours ago, feipan said:

Dogfights are not artificial 2 circle fights at 10.000ft. Any opponent will just low yo-yo and shoot out of the sky while you perfectly maintain your turn rate at altitude.

 

 

LOL, ya,  I stopped trying a few months ago.

btw, the AI won't bother with a low yoyo as long as it will beat you. Which would be almost any aircraft against the F-16. With enough lead pursuit even a MiG-15 can stay with an F-16 in a turn. Everything the F-16 does better is in the vertical.

 

And the FM seems to have had a stealth update where the F-16 has more pitch authority at low speeds. Since the F-16's advantage is in the vertical, suddenly the F-16 becomes more maneuverable and forgiving when getting slow near an apex, which adds a massive advantage in the 2.7 patch.

[Machalot]

On 6/23/2021 at 3:08 AM, Ватрушка said:

https://dcs.silver.ru/70,66

 

Could the difference be a result of the KEAS implementation? 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Machalot

[SCPanda]

On 6/23/2021 at 8:15 PM, Spurts said:

the Viper best sustained turn rate does not occur at 9G.  And as far as turn rates go 7.5G at lower speed can easily equal or exceed 9G at higher speed and have a smaller radius to boot. That is simply the geometry of a turn. 

Then explain this. In the graph, the higher the speed, the higher the turn rate. 

 

On 6/23/2021 at 8:15 PM, Spurts said:

And using the paddle will not increase sustained turn rate, ever.

In the graph, best turn rate for the Hornet is achieved at 448 kts. You have to use the paddle at this speed, if you don't, the jet will just keep accelerating. 

[mobua]

On 6/23/2021 at 12:08 PM, Ватрушка said:

https://dcs.silver.ru/70,66

 

So basically the DCS: F/A 18C is beating any aircraft in DCS in regards to turn rate aswell as turn radius. By quite a margin ...

 

The big motor 402s also seem to provide comparable speed and climb characteristics with a clean hornet.

 

That FM update is much needed.

[Versor]

Very important thing in the f-18 is the ability to use the paddle at higher speeds. Thanks to this, the F-18 can achieve overloads much higher than the permissible ones. This makes F-18 an unbeatable dogfighter.

I don't know how it is in reality and what would happen if the pilot used a paddle and reached, say, 9 g in the F-18

Edited June 25, 2021 by Versor

[Spurts]

10 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Then explain this. In the graph, the higher the speed, the higher the turn rate. 

 

In the graph, best turn rate for the Hornet is achieved at 448 kts. You have to use the paddle at this speed, if you don't, the jet will just keep accelerating. 

in what graph?  In general, for a given radius (determined largely by stall speed in a configuration) as speed increases then G increases until you reach a G limit, then it decreases.  The Hornet has a lower stall speed and thus a tighter radius, so until such a speed as the Viper reaches 7.5G the Hornet will turn faster.

 

as to the second part, I am not seeing the graph so I can't tell you.