Aim-54 CCM

[captain_dalan]

14 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

 

Pretty sure the CCM values only affect the missile itself, not anything in between. So only post pitbull shots, or PDSTT. 

Are you sure on the 2nd part? I haven't done enough testing in controlled environment, but i can almost swear i've seen tracks of my shots eating chaff well outside pitbull range. Have there been any significant guidance changes in last couple of months?

[BlackPixxel]

2 hours ago, Naquaii said:

The AIM-54A looks for the SARH reflection and also get missile datalink commands via the AWG-9. You are assuming things wrongly, how would it otherwise get the active transfer command to go active? And again, can't compare old versus new missile implementation like that, you're assuming things again.

 

Never said that there is no datalink, just that the midcourse guidance is done based on reflections of the target.

Edited July 25, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Naquaii]

12 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

Never said that there is no datalink, just that the midcourse guidance is done based on reflections of the target.

 

And the data-link.

[BlackPixxel]

1 minute ago, Naquaii said:

And the data-link.

 

Any idea why it is doing both? Seems like the datalink would be the better choice, as it allows to engage targets beyond the detection range of the target reflection with the missile seeker.

[GGTharos]

2 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

Any idea why it is doing both? Seems like the datalink would be the better choice, as it allows to engage targets beyond the detection range of the target reflection with the missile seeker.

 

Because it's old.  We're not sure what changed between the 54A and say something like the R-27 or AIM-120 - maybe IMUs were particularely ineffective at that time.  The specific thing that the SA/DL appears to be solving is an inaccurate IMU.  There are other possibilities instead of or in addition to the IMU that may have to do with the analog processing of various doppler/speed gates etc.  It may also have to do with transmission bandwidth.

[BIGNEWY]

I have deleted posts that broke our forum rules or quoted them in replies.#

 

Please have a read of the rules before posting again. 

 

Thread reopened

 

thanks

[Breakshot]

2 hours ago, Naquaii said:

 

You can't directly compare those, our AIM-54 is still using the old missile implementation, the AIM-7 is on the new one.

 

 

The AIM-54A looks for the SARH reflection and also get missile datalink commands via the AWG-9. You are assuming things wrongly, how would it otherwise get the active transfer command to go active? And again, can't compare old versus new missile implementation like that, you're assuming things again.

 

How do you know no range information is available? How do you know the AWG-9 and AIM-54 is notched?

When will the new API be implemented for the 54?

 

When will ECM affect the ranging data on 54 like it does with all other BVR missiles? Ie. no loft vs ECM

 

When will ECM affect the F14 radar? Like how it affects other aircraft

 

Those are IMHO the 3 main fundamental questions that affect 54s performance. Thanks!

[Naquaii]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

 

Because it's old.  We're not sure what changed between the 54A and say something like the R-27 or AIM-120 - maybe IMUs were particularely ineffective at that time.  The specific thing that the SA/DL appears to be solving is an inaccurate IMU.  There are other possibilities instead of or in addition to the IMU that may have to do with the analog processing of various doppler/speed gates etc.  It may also have to do with transmission bandwidth.

 

This. Basically, afaik, the datalink is only good enough for giving the missile a general idea of where to go, so it guides the missile until it finds the target with its own seeker looking for the AWG-9 returns.

 

1 hour ago, Breakshot said:

When will the new API be implemented for the 54?

 

When will ECM affect the ranging data on 54 like it does with all other BVR missiles? Ie. no loft vs ECM

 

When will ECM affect the F14 radar? Like how it affects other aircraft

 

Those are IMHO the 3 main fundamental questions that affect 54s performance. Thanks!

 

I'm not the right guy to ask for ETA on stuff.

But we are currently working on moving the AIM-54 to the new missile modelling system, it is taking some time getting it right though.

ECM affecting loft on the AIM-54 is completely related to the anti-jamming functionality for the AWG-9 and that's a tough nut to crack as we'll have to simulate some analog functions of the AWG-9 and how they show up on the displays. Best I can give you there is that it's something that we regard as needed to be able to launch out of early access.

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Naquaii

[Breakshot]

44 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

 

This. Basically, afaik, the datalink is only good enough for giving the missile a general idea of where to go, so it guides the missile until it finds the target with its own seeker looking for the AWG-9 returns.

 

 

I'm not the right guy to ask for ETA on stuff.

But we are currently working on moving the AIM-54 to the new missile modelling system, it is taking some time getting it right though.

ECM affecting loft on the AIM-54 is completely related to the anti-jamming functionality for the AWG-9 and that's a tough nut to crack as we'll have to simulate some analog functions of the AWG-9 and how they show up on the displays. Best I can give you there is that it's something that we regard as needed to be able to launch out of early access.

 

 

 

Great I hope you get around making those changes soon. Thanks for the clear answers. Looking forward

[RustBelt]

15 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

No: http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-54.html

 

The Aim-54A looks at the target reflection from the TWS sweeps of the fighter radar for SARH homing in the midcourse phase. Then it switches to ARH once close enough. It is not steered by datalink.

 

Anyway, the CCM value of the Aim-54A is a joke for such an old missile. Absolutely not consistent with the rest of the DCS missiles.

Huh, so it does, that explains some things!

14 hours ago, Breakshot said:

It is by far the buggiest missile of the lot.

Harpoon has entered the room...

9 hours ago, Naquaii said:

And the data-link.

Here's a question, is the datalink separate? Or is it PWM datalink in the illumination? Does the 54 read the datalink off the reflected pulse? or is it a separate "channel"?

[dundun92]

14 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

This is a joke of a statement if you have ever used the 54 yourself or done firing tests. The 54A and C are pretty much the easiest missiles to chaff out in DCS and this has been the case since the release of the Tomcat. Those ccm values in the .lua don't seem to have much of an impact on the new API by the looks of it. Let alone how the chaff mechanics in DCS work - it's basically a diceroll evry time you pop a chaff bundle with a certain probability coefficient.  And how do you know what the CCM values need to be? Especially the 54C should simply ignore most chaff - it's more than twice as big in diameter than the AIM7 or AMRAAM with a ton more room for electronics and a much larger seeker dish. You have no idea what you are talking about here. 

 

Actually, as of a few patches ago ( I dont remember which one), the CCM of the AIM-54 changed and was drastically increases to the point where chaffing it is borderline impossible/ You can still notch it (it will reacquire if you exit however), but chaff doesnt affect either the A or C much rn; not claiming that the way it was was realistic, just stating the current in game state.

[near_blind]

19 minutes ago, dundun92 said:

Actually, as of a few patches ago ( I dont remember which one), the CCM of the AIM-54 changed and was drastically increases to the point where chaffing it is borderline impossible/ You can still notch it (it will reacquire if you exit however), but chaff doesnt affect either the A or C much rn; not claiming that the way it was was realistic, just stating the current in game state.

 

What's your definition of recent? They still have the same CCM values they've had since last last august when it was changed due to fallout from the AMRAAM rework, it hasn't changed since at least december.

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, near_blind said:

 

What's your definition of recent? They still have the same CCM values they've had since last last august when it was changed due to fallout from the AMRAAM rework, it hasn't changed since at least december.

The lua vales didnt change, no, but the actual in game effectiveness did, IDK what changed to cause it. And by recent I mean <1 month. I think it may have happened the same patch/patch before the AMRAAM got the chaff reword but im not fully sure

Edited July 26, 2021 by dundun92

[Naquaii]

8 hours ago, RustBelt said:

Huh, so it does, that explains some things!

Harpoon has entered the room...

Here's a question, is the datalink separate? Or is it PWM datalink in the illumination? Does the 54 read the datalink off the reflected pulse? or is it a separate "channel"?

The missile messages are encoded in the normal radar emissions from the AWG-9 and recieved by a rear antenna in the missile.

 

Edit: Just to clarify, this has no bearing on the modelling in DCS, it's just not important to how the missiles are modelled.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Naquaii

[captain_dalan]

10 hours ago, dundun92 said:

You can still notch it (it will reacquire if you exit however)

Does the missile reacquire during the SARH phase or during the ARH phase? Or both?

[DSplayer]

19 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

Does the missile reacquire during the SARH phase or during the ARH phase? Or both?

AIM-54s and the AWG-9 do not reacquire targets during the SARH phase/phase before its active. During the active phase it does reacquire you.

[captain_dalan]

7 hours ago, DSplayer said:

AIM-54s and the AWG-9 do not reacquire targets during the SARH phase/phase before its active. During the active phase it does reacquire you.

Ah, ok then, good to know.

[near_blind]

33 minutes ago, DCSoping said:

Because they are now guided to 'held tracks' ?

So in practice if you break lock with awg radar before missile is active, missile is not dumb but being guided to projected destination and then goes active. 

As long as you keep the held track in front of you, yes, it the missile should receive a active signal at time out. Whether or not the missile will be able to see the target by this time is up to a number of factors, and is not guaranteed. 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:53 AM, Breakshot said:

Neither of those points have anything to do with countermeasures rejection!

We are talking DCS parameters, not RL. The way the game dynamics operate is a dice roll.

So with that in mind, the 54 has way too good odds of not rejecting chaff and clutter rn. As good as 120C almost.

I call bullshit.

Ccm values need to be on par if not worse than Aim7 / 120B.

Its tweaked to overperform greatly right now

Отправлено с моего STV100-2 через Tapatalk

 

Has this ever been adressed ?
I see MK60's from the 1970's with analog seekers track tiny fighters that are chaffing and notching , through the trees while skimming the earth .

The old analog MK60 is like a 2020 terrain following cruise missile once it's active. 

[Gunslinger22]

4 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Has this ever been adressed ?
I see MK60's from the 1970's with analog seekers track tiny fighters that are chaffing and notching , through the trees while skimming the earth .

The old analog MK60 is like a 2020 terrain following cruise missile once it's active. 

Is that not an accurate simulation of its known capabilities? Please provide any sources pointing to it being otherwise. 

[Cpt. Weber]

4 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

Has this ever been adressed ?
I see MK60's from the 1970's with analog seekers track tiny fighters that are chaffing and notching , through the trees while skimming the earth .

The old analog MK60 is like a 2020 terrain following cruise missile once it's active. 

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack planes (chaffing and notching) on fire off the hills of Iran... I watched Phoenixes (Mk60) glitter in the dark (while skimming the earth) near the Persian Gulf. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to die."

Edited December 4, 2021 by Cpt. Weber

[Snappy]

4 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

I see MK60's from the 1970's with analog seekers track tiny fighters that are chaffing and notching , through the trees while skimming the earth .

The old analog MK60 is like a 2020 terrain following cruise missile once it's active. 

Tracks or it didnt happen

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Snappy

[captain_dalan]

1 hour ago, Cpt. Weber said:

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack planes (chaffing and notching) on fire off the hills of Iran... I watched Phoenixes (Mk60) glitter in the dark (while skimming the earth) near the Persian Gulf. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to die."

 

Don't forget the pigeon! 

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

1 hour ago, Gunslinger22 said:

Is that not an accurate simulation of its known capabilities? Please provide any sources pointing to it being otherwise. 

No it's not. 

The 1970's analog MK60 is not an "overkill version of the amraam" . Unless it's makers had the ability to travel 40 years to the future, and put that technology is this ancient vietnam war era missile .
It's seeker is grossly overperforming.

[DSplayer]

API for the AIM-54 is still old AF. Gotta wait till they roll out the new API for any meaningful fixes to happen. I do not expect them to bandaid an old system that is getting replaced soon anyway.