in roadmap DCS F16 turn performance

[karasawa]

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/physics/chapter/17-2-speed-of-sound-frequency-and-wavelength/

Based on the formula here the speed of sound at sea level, 15 deg C should be 331 * sqrt((273+15)/273) = 339m/s, still smaller than the value in DCS.

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by karasawa

[NineLine]

If you guys want to have a math battle, take it to PMs, other wises stay on topic, if you have questions about our document, then ask, otherwise I dont know why anything else really needs to be discussed or argued about.

[totmacher]

20.09.2021 в 20:21, NineLine сказал:

Test is based on GE-129 / 24k lbs GW / DI=0, see attached.

in PDF file wrote
Sustained turn rate test GE-129 / 22k lbs GW / DI=0 / Max AB / Standard Day

 

What right weight ?

[Hummingbird]

16 minutes ago, Machalot said:

Can you expand on this? Why is this the case? 

 

Often its hard to get the rate scale to fit precisely on a doghouse plot like that, hence it's better to use the measured load factors. Seen it on F-14 & F-15 charts as well.

 

The actual turn rate at M 0.695 @ SL (which is 236.5 m/s under ICAO ISA) when the load factor is 9 G, is 21.24 deg/sec. 

 

 Turn rate = 9.8*(sqrt((load factor^2)-1))/velocity

[NineLine]

1 minute ago, totmacher said:

in PDF file wrote
Sustained turn rate test GE-129 / 22k lbs GW / DI=0 / Max AB / Standard Day

 

What right weight ?

I've updated the post GE-129 / 22k lbs GW / DI=0/ Max AB / Standard Day

[Hummingbird]

Just now, NineLine said:

I've updated the post GE-129 / 22k lbs GW / DI=0/ Max AB / Standard Day

 

That makes more sense, was wondering why it read 24k lbs.

9 minutes ago, karasawa said:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/physics/chapter/17-2-speed-of-sound-frequency-and-wavelength/

Based on the formula here the speed of sound at sea level, 15 deg C should be 331 * sqrt((273+15)/273) = 339m/s, still smaller than the value in DCS.

 

Like I said, ICAO ISA, speed of sound = 340 m/s.

 

You can use this calculator from NASA's site: https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/sound.html

 

Now why do you believe the speed of sound in DCS is 345 m/s at 15 deg C?   

[Hummingbird]

13 minutes ago, NineLine said:

If you guys want to have a math battle, take it to PMs, other wises stay on topic, if you have questions about our document, then ask, otherwise I dont know why anything else really needs to be discussed or argued about.

 

Not intending to start a math battle, just wondering why he thinks you guys got the speed of sound wrong in DCS.

[NineLine]

37 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Not intending to start a math battle, just wondering why he thinks you guys got the speed of sound wrong in DCS.

I dont know, but he is welcome to open a bug report in the appropriate forum with all his evidence and tracks.

[Versor]

2 hours ago, karasawa said:

Stay above 10000 ft and you can out turn a hornet easily in a 2 circle fight.

Can you show me how to do that ? Of course not with AI. 

[karasawa]

22 minutes ago, Versor said:

Can you show me how to do that ? Of course not with AI. 

A 50% fuel viper with 6 amraams can sustain more than 14deg/sec at 10000 feet (around mach 0.85), faster than the hornet with the same load.

When clean (remove pylons manually) the viper can sustain over 16.5deg/sec at the same altitude. Faster than anything that flies.

Edited September 22, 2021 by karasawa

[Versor]

16 minutes ago, karasawa said:

A 50% fuel viper with 6 amraams can sustain more than 14deg/sec at 10000 feet (around mach 0.85), faster than the hornet with the same load.

When clean (remove pylons manually) the viper can sustain over 16.5deg/sec at the same altitude. Faster than anything that flies.

 

Ok ok but could you show me how to do this. Couple dogfights. PM me if you agree. Settings - high aspect BFM, 25000 ft, some about 400 kts, some about 5-10 miles separation, clean F-16 vs clean F-18 (without pylons) 100% fuel.

[Versor]

On 9/20/2021 at 7:21 PM, NineLine said:

Please post your data, we certainly didn't check how it performs vs other aircraft, we checked it against available reference data with SME review, thanks.

 

Test is based on GE-129 / 22k lbs GW / DI=0/ Max AB / Standard Day, see attached.

 

While not perfect, and needs a little tuning here and there, it is much more accurate than the previous version.
 

 

 

 

 

DCS_ F-16C Viper Sustained turn rate Rev1.pdf 263.92 kB · 11 downloads

NineLine can you show us the same document for F-18 ?

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Versor said:

NineLine can you show us the same document for F-18 ?

I'll ask the team if this type of document is planned.

 

We don't have the same data on the F/A-18C to share such a document like this sorry.

 

Lets keep this thread on the Viper turn rates as well. Thanks all.

[SCPanda]

10 hours ago, karasawa said:

Stay above 10000 ft and you can out turn a hornet easily in a 2 circle fight.

Thx. May I ask what speed should I fly to rate the Hornet(in kts pls)? 

7 hours ago, Versor said:

Ok ok but could you show me how to do this. Couple dogfights. PM me if you agree. Settings - high aspect BFM, 25000 ft, some about 400 kts, some about 5-10 miles separation, clean F-16 vs clean F-18 (without pylons) 100% fuel.

I would love to watch lol. Beating a Hornet is so hard in a Viper, even with the updated FM. I tried for a couple of fights in the dogfight sever, the Hornet always gets on my six. But if I switch to a Hornet, the fight is pretty even and somewhat easier. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by SCPanda

[Versor]

8 hours ago, NineLine said:

I'll ask the team if this type of document is planned.

 

We don't have the same data on the F/A-18C to share such a document like this sorry.

 

Lets keep this thread on the Viper turn rates as well. Thanks all.

Good morning

 

NineLine could you please show us any document that FM Hornet is based on. I want to analyze how to bite him.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Versor

[SCPanda]

2 hours ago, Versor said:

Good morning

 

NineLine could you please show us any document that FM Hornet is based on. I want to analyze how to bite him.

 

Same here. But I guess Nineline would suggest you to ask about this in the Hornet section.

 

Also, I am also curious about whether the Hornet is overperforming in STR, and also the JF-17. Both jets currently are the best rate fighters as well as the best 1 circle fighters in DCS, which makes them really unbeatable in BFM. Mirage might win against them in 1 circle fights but they both outrates the Mirage by far so Mirage doesn't stand a chance as well. Viper will lose to them both in 2 circle and 1 circle, which is kinda frustrating and might not be that realistic. But yes again, we might need to ask about these kind of stuff in the Hornet and Jeff section. 

 

Edit: It seems Mig-29 also outrates the Viper in all speed ranges https://dcs.silver.ru/39,77,IAS_kts,turnrate

Edited September 23, 2021 by SCPanda

[TobiasA]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb SCPanda:

Same here. But I guess Nineline would suggest you to ask about this in the Hornet section.

 

Also, I am also curious about whether the Hornet is overperforming in STR, and also the JF-17. Both jets currently are the best rate fighters as well as the best 1 circle fighters in DCS, which makes them really unbeatable in BFM. Mirage might win against them in 1 circle fights but they both outrates the Mirage by far so Mirage doesn't stand a chance as well. Viper will lose to them both in 2 circle and 1 circle, which is kinda frustrating and might not be that realistic. But yes again, we might need to ask about these kind of stuff in the Hornet and Jeff section. 

 

Edit: It seems Mig-29 also outrates the Viper in all speed ranges https://dcs.silver.ru/39,77,IAS_kts,turnrate

 

Keep in mind that the graph shows almost sea level while the Vipers advantage begins on altitude. However the russians are the kings of alpha, especially the Flanker. 

So in order to beat them, you would have to keep up your energy, but that opens up possibilities to make use of HMS and R-73.

If flown right the Flanker is very hard to beat, the MiG-29 isn't so far behind, its alpha and instantaneous turn rate are insane at corner speed. 

Anyway, you need to see more altitudes in order to be able to say that the F-16 is worse than the Fulcrum. It is on sea level, but gains on 10k ft and above afaik. 

[karasawa]

6 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Same here. But I guess Nineline would suggest you to ask about this in the Hornet section.

 

Also, I am also curious about whether the Hornet is overperforming in STR, and also the JF-17. Both jets currently are the best rate fighters as well as the best 1 circle fighters in DCS, which makes them really unbeatable in BFM. Mirage might win against them in 1 circle fights but they both outrates the Mirage by far so Mirage doesn't stand a chance as well. Viper will lose to them both in 2 circle and 1 circle, which is kinda frustrating and might not be that realistic. But yes again, we might need to ask about these kind of stuff in the Hornet and Jeff section. 

 

Edit: It seems Mig-29 also outrates the Viper in all speed ranges https://dcs.silver.ru/39,77,IAS_kts,turnrate

 

That is because 50% fuel in Mig-29 supports much less airborne time than 50% fuel in viper. If you unify the afterburner duration (say, 50% fuel in Mig-29 while 40% fuel in viper), the viper outrates the Mig-29 from 600km/h and up.

[Glide]

I spent the night building a new mach loop course around Lebanon and running time trails on it.  I can share if you want to compare apples and have some fun! I'm still tuning the course.  Once around with Internals only and you touch down with ~1200 lbs of fuel.  Twice around with full externals and you touch down with ~2600 lbs of fuel.  This is without touching AB after takeoff.

 

At full Mil power you can cruise at .99 mach, and will full tanks you are at ~.93 mach (2 9's on the wings).  I haven't tested getting to Mach 2.0 yet.  The jet feels absolutely great in the circuit.  If the jet is better in the straightaway with this FM perhaps a turning fight is not something you want to engage in unless you can't avoid it.  Perhaps the boom and zoom approach is a better choice.  I know I would love to get on that bandit's tail and get the gun kill, but is that still a realistic expectation?  I guess you would call this strategy "how I learned to stop worrying and love the FM I've been given."  

[karasawa]

5 hours ago, Glide said:

I spent the night building a new mach loop course around Lebanon and running time trails on it.  I can share if you want to compare apples and have some fun! I'm still tuning the course.  Once around with Internals only and you touch down with ~1200 lbs of fuel.  Twice around with full externals and you touch down with ~2600 lbs of fuel.  This is without touching AB after takeoff.

 

At full Mil power you can cruise at .99 mach, and will full tanks you are at ~.93 mach (2 9's on the wings).  I haven't tested getting to Mach 2.0 yet.  The jet feels absolutely great in the circuit.  If the jet is better in the straightaway with this FM perhaps a turning fight is not something you want to engage in unless you can't avoid it.  Perhaps the boom and zoom approach is a better choice.  I know I would love to get on that bandit's tail and get the gun kill, but is that still a realistic expectation?  I guess you would call this strategy "how I learned to stop worrying and love the FM I've been given."  

That is still lower than the HAF manual. F-16 at mil should supercruise at mach 1.04

[karasawa]

On 9/22/2021 at 11:40 PM, SCPanda said:

Thx. May I ask what speed should I fly to rate the Hornet(in kts pls)? 

I would love to watch lol. Beating a Hornet is so hard in a Viper, even with the updated FM. I tried for a couple of fights in the dogfight sever, the Hornet always gets on my six. But if I switch to a Hornet, the fight is pretty even and somewhat easier. 

 

At 10000 feet try mach 0.85, it should be your max rate speed (IAS 550+ I believe?).

At 15000 feet try mach 0.85-0.9.

Edited September 24, 2021 by karasawa

[totmacher]

20.09.2021 в 20:21, NineLine сказал:

Please post your data, we certainly didn't check how it performs vs other aircraft, we checked it against available reference data with SME review, thanks.

 

Test is based on GE-129 / 22k lbs GW / DI=0/ Max AB / Standard Day, see attached.

 

While not perfect, and needs a little tuning here and there, it is much more accurate than the previous version.
DCS_ F-16C Viper Sustained turn rate Rev1.pdf 263 \u041a\u0431 · 36 скачиваний

 

My tests for 500 feet MSL (22000lbs without pylons) (All even close to reference values)

 

Sustained Turn Rate
Reference - 0.70 Mach at 9G = 21.7 D/Sec
Game - 0.7 Mach at 9G = 21.2 D/Sec
my measurements - 0,69 Mach at 8,922G(ny) = 21,7 D/Sec

Reference - 0.50 Mach at 6G = 20.4 D/Sec
Game – 0.5 Mach at 5.9G = 20.6 D/Sec
my measurements - 0,5 Mach at 6G(ny) = 20,4  D/Sec

 

Reference - 0.36 Mach at 4G = 18.9 D/Sec
Game – 0.36 Mach at 3.8G = 18.0 D/Sec
my measurements - 0,36 Mach at 3.8G(ny) = 18,13 D/Sec

 

 

F-16c 22000lbs 500ft.xlsx F-16c 500ft 22000lbs 0.5mach.trk Tacview-20210924-225044-F-16c 500ft 22000lbs 0.5mach.zip.acmi

[Versor]

Great information totmacher. I wonder if the parameters are similar to the reality on 10k ft, 15k ft, 20k ft or 25k ft. Do we have the data to check the FM Viper based on them? I have one more question. Currently, all information relates to the turn of the Viper when its nose moves along the horizon. And what if, for example, we turn our nose at an angle to the horizontal, down or up. Is this information available somewhere?

[mobua]

6 hours ago, totmacher said:

 

My tests for 500 feet MSL (22000lbs without pylons) (All even close to reference values)

 

Sustained Turn Rate
Reference - 0.70 Mach at 9G = 21.7 D/Sec
Game - 0.7 Mach at 9G = 21.2 D/Sec
my measurements - 0,69 Mach at 8,922G(ny) = 21,7 D/Sec

Reference - 0.50 Mach at 6G = 20.4 D/Sec
Game – 0.5 Mach at 5.9G = 20.6 D/Sec
my measurements - 0,5 Mach at 6G(ny) = 20,4  D/Sec

 

Reference - 0.36 Mach at 4G = 18.9 D/Sec
Game – 0.36 Mach at 3.8G = 18.0 D/Sec
my measurements - 0,36 Mach at 3.8G(ny) = 18,13 D/Sec

 

 

F-16c 22000lbs 500ft.xlsx 18.32 kB · 4 downloads F-16c 500ft 22000lbs 0.5mach.trk 135.24 kB · 1 download Tacview-20210924-225044-F-16c 500ft 22000lbs 0.5mach.zip.acmi 65.27 kB · 1 download

 

Well it seems we are getting close in regards to STR, albeit <.4 mach range still needing some tweaking.

Moving forward I'm looking forward to the tweaks in regards to:

 

• ITR
• Available G/G acceleration
• Energy retention/drag effects

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by BIGNEWY
removed off topic

[BIGNEWY]

Removed off topic, please keep this thread Viper related. 

 

If you have information regarding STR data on the hornet feel free to PM me or Nineline.