Cant lasing, or IR point while orbiting

[Zodiacc]

Hey guys, I was doing some FAC(A) role yesterday and orbiting around targeting area and notice that I cant lase or IR point the target.However if I boresight TGP and look somewhere in front of me laser/pointer works fine and then I could slave my tgp to the point I actually want while my laser is on.In a nutshell target has to be relatively in front of me.Is it normal behaviour  about masking or something else ?

[Yurgon]

If you can replicate that in a track and share that track with us, we can give a detailed answer.

 

In broad terms: If the TGP shows INR-A or INR-P (Inertial Tracking Area/Point) it means it's masked. It's quite possible that you can actually see the target in the TGP and still get the INR-A or INR-P note, because of the static masking profile and because the visual sensor is not in the exact same spot as the laser designator in the TGP head, meaning the CCD might have clear LOS while the laser is really masked.

 

I think when the TGP is slaved it won't fire the laser, either; in that case, simply slew it a notch in either direction to get it from slaved to tracking (AREA and POINT both work fine).

[Zodiacc]

34 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

If you can replicate that in a track and share that track with us, we can give a detailed answer.

 

In broad terms: If the TGP shows INR-A or INR-P (Inertial Tracking Area/Point) it means it's masked. It's quite possible that you can actually see the target in the TGP and still get the INR-A or INR-P note, because of the static masking profile and because the visual sensor is not in the exact same spot as the laser designator in the TGP head, meaning the CCD might have clear LOS while the laser is really masked.

 

I think when the TGP is slaved it won't fire the laser, either; in that case, simply slew it a notch in either direction to get it from slaved to tracking (AREA and POINT both work fine).

OK.I just tried again and as you said it seems if its INR-A or INR-P mode it doesnt shoot laser or IR.However strange thing is that if I slew TGP somewhere I can get solid Point/Area track where I can shoot IR.I can slew back where I couldnt shot IR before.

Here is a short video I just record

 

[Yurgon]

3 hours ago, Zodiacc said:

However strange thing is that if I slew TGP somewhere I can get solid Point/Area track where I can shoot IR.I can slew back where I couldnt shot IR before.

 

Oh, that's definitely interesting!

 

It seems the laser properly stops firing whenever the TGP gets masked. But the IR pointer just keeps firing no matter what. It can even shoot right through the wing. Apparently the code that stops the laser firing when masking occurs doesn't apply to the IR pointer. However, when the TGP is masked, the IR pointer at least won't start firing, which is a good thing.

 

As for the original question, when you're orbiting around a target from 10 miles away like in the video, there's a good chance the TGP does indeed get masked. The TCTS pod might not actually be in the way, but in DCS we always have the same masking profile, which probably covers jammer pods and sidewinders and a GBU-12 which might hang on the outmost pylon, even if they actually don't.

[jaylw314]

A couple of things:

 

AFAIK the INR-P and INR-A modes ALMOST, but not quite, match up with the laser masking areas.  The true indication of a masked laser is the "M" cue on the TGP and HUD.  When you are close to the laser masked area, the "M" cue will flash, then turn solid when you are well and truly masked, and the "L" cue will stop flashing and turn back to solid as it turns off.

 

I'm not sure how the IR pointer works, don't have much experience with it, but I assume when you are in "B" mode for both IR and laser, the "M" cue will prevent the laser from firing but the IR pointer fires okay as mentioned above

 

Also realize the physical range of the TGP laser is 8.2 nm slant range, IIRC.  Anything beyond that will not actually be designated by the laser

Edited October 9, 2021 by jaylw314

[Yurgon]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

AFAIK the INR-P and INR-A modes ALMOST, but not quite, match up with the laser masking areas.  The true indication of a masked laser is the "M" cue on the TGP and HUD.  When you are close to the laser masked area, the "M" cue will flash, then turn solid when you are well and truly masked, and the "L" cue will stop flashing and turn back to solid as it turns off.

 

Wow, that's great info, thanks!

[QuiGon]

17 hours ago, Zodiacc said:

However strange thing is that if I slew TGP somewhere I can get solid Point/Area track where I can shoot IR.I can slew back where I couldnt shot IR before.

 

That seems like a bug to me.

Edited October 9, 2021 by QuiGon

[ASAP]

Looking at the video you posted it looks like you are masking your laser. Looking at the bottom right of the TGP video there's a "L M" the "M" means the laser is masked.

 

Something that helps is paying attention to the white square that's drifting around your TGP video as you manuever the SA cue is showing you where the TGP is looking in relation to your jet. In the video it's all the way over near the edge of the screen which means it's probably masked in the laser mask zone. Try to manuever closer to the target, get higher, or keep the target forward of your wing line to keep the laser from masking.

[Razor18]

Not to hijack the topic, but I just tried the APKWS training mission, and with the Laser Latch "ON", if I press NWS (pinky on Warthog) to lase with the TGP, "L" starts to flash, but then it stops in 1 second. No "M" appearing. What am I doing wrong? Target right out in front of me... what the heck?

[Yurgon]

Can you upload a track or share a video?

It probably comes down to the same problem as OP, so I would guess it's probably a masking issue; check for the flashing or solid "M" indication in the HUD or the solid "M" right next to "L" in the TGP.

[Razor18]

WILCO, but it was the same with the target head on, without the M blinking or on.

How can I record a track? Sorry, never done any...

Edited October 25, 2021 by Razor18

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, Razor18 said:

WILCO, but it was the same with the target head on, without the M blinking or on.

How can I record a track? Sorry, never done any...

 

On the debriefing screen (after ending the mission) hit "Save Replay".

[Razor18]

Oh, thanks !

[Razor18]

Until I played the APKWS training to the point where it finally happens (at the end with the tank and supports column), the trk file grew 10 MB long. Can't attach...

Uhh... is it maybe laser overheat modelled, if I left on lasing from the very first shot on the Mig-21 at the airfield? Completed all previous shot with no problem up to the tank column....

Edited October 25, 2021 by Razor18

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Razor18 said:

Until I played the APKWS training to the point where it finally happens (at the end with the tank and supports column), the trk file grew 10 MB long. Can't attach...

Uhh... is it maybe laser overheat modelled, if I left on lasing from the very first shot on the Mig-21 at the airfield? Completed all previous shot with no problem up to the tank column....

That's certainly a possibility as the A-10C is one of the few modules that actually simulates laser overheating (AFAIK the only other module doing this is the Ka-50). I'm flying the A-10C in DCS for almost 10 years now and never really had any issues with laser overheating untill I started using the APKWS, which requires a lot of lasing. But since then I try to be even more strict with my laser usage and be careful to  only  ever fire the laser when it is actually needed and keep it on standby otherwise to avoid overheat issues.

Edited October 25, 2021 by QuiGon

[Razor18]

Same goes to me exactly. 10 years DCS A-10C, now failing with APKWS.

[Yurgon]

Wow, okay, that's certainly a possibility as well.

[Ramsay]

3 hours ago, QuiGon said:

AFAIK the only other module doing this is the Ka-50

I've seen laser failure in the A-10C, Ka-50, Su-25T and F/A-18C.
• IIRC laser burnout occurred after +5 min continuous lasing in the Su-25T and Ka-50
• while  cumulative damage occurred after +22 min lasing total in the A-10C, Ka-50 and F/A-18C, and is unavoidable regardless of turning off the laser, RTB's etc.
• AFAIK, prior to the introduction of LMav and APKWS, only A-10C FAC-A's would regularly experience laser failure (or a Ka-50 on it's 3rd rearm).

AFAIK the laser of a Litening Gen 3/4 TGP shouldn't "burnout" after 30 minutes of cumulative operation i.e. the Litening AT has MTBF of +600 hours.