Who and for what Would you like to buy any new modules?

[scampaboy]

The money that would be spent on modules is going into GPU scalpers pockets and not ED. 
New eye candy is great but when I have to “change my expectations” on the latest generation of GPU I am not seeing the eye candy that I’m losing performance for. 
I will hold off on purchase until I see the performance on some lesser known YouTubers computers which are usually more comparable to my own hardware.

[scampaboy]

On 10/26/2021 at 9:28 PM, Lange_666 said:

Well, hasn't it been always like this in the past?
If no, then why did i buy a new PC every few years (counting back to early 1980's).
I tell you... just to keep up with ever more demanding software. It happened then, and it still happens today and not only on ED's behalf.
Only drawback (and holding me back to upgrade) are the superhigh prices of hardware these days.

Every few years yes, but the time is getting shorter much shorter. When you have this generation “matched” hardware and the performance still drops its going a bit far. 
I can understand with the leap to 2.7 there was a performance hit, but it seems every patch is creating more performance problems for a lot of people. There was talk of some performance tweaks, the RAM leak on Syria for example, the filling of peoples GPU memory in basic missions. People with 3090 cards having to turn down the settings they previously used. It’s time to optimise to keep the customers you already have. What’s the point to buy a new module if I’m not going to able to run it reasonably 

[Lurker]

9 hours ago, scampaboy said:

The money that would be spent on modules is going into GPU scalpers pockets and not ED. 
New eye candy is great but when I have to “change my expectations” on the latest generation of GPU I am not seeing the eye candy that I’m losing performance for. 
I will hold off on purchase until I see the performance on some lesser known YouTubers computers which are usually more comparable to my own hardware.

Exactly this. There is no excuse that this game can't run and run well on a 3090RTX. I mean there should be no excuse for it not to run on a 3080 let alone a 3090. Let's see what todays patch brings, but I'm not holding my breath either. For 2.7.6, to get smooth framerates in VR (which is very important) I had to turn down a ton of detail, however I understood that it was a compromise, I know that I can't get all the eye candy to maintain those frame rates. As long as I can get the game to look decently sharp and detailed and maintain smooth flying. The last patch completely destroyed that. So we are going backwards, somehow. Let's hope it was caused by some kind of bug. If that is not the case, then Eagle Dynamics should simply say they are not supporting VR and be done with it. 

[Lange_666]

Still:

Going back a couple of years:
- Intel 950 - GTX480 - 8GB RAM: Oh wow, i can as good as max out everything.
Then after some updates sliders and settings needed to come down, step by step, to keep that FPS up and up to point where an update was need ed to keep it running smootly and decent eye candy.
- Intel i7 4770K@3.5Ghz - GTX 780 - 16 GB: Oh wow, i can as good as max out everything.
Then after some updates sliders and settings needed to come, step by step, down to keep that FPS up and up to point where an update was need ed to keep it running smootly and decent eye candy.
- Intel i7 4770K@4.5Ghz - GTX 1080Ti - 32 GB: Oh wow, i can as good as max out everything.
Then after some updates sliders and settings needed to come down,step by step, to keep that FPS up and up to point where an update was need ed to keep it running smootly and decent eye candy.

If everything should run on old computers i could have kept my Commordore C-64, even my VIC-20 before that.

I'm now at the point where i'm thinking about upgrading again to keep up. Problem is this:

9 hours ago, scampaboy said:

The money that would be spent on modules is going into GPU scalpers pockets and not ED.

Just looked at a 3090 in my local store, 2 available, one at 2899€ (inc VAT) and the other at 2999€.
And then i can't get by with a 3090 alone because it doesn't fit in my current case. So a total upgrade comes to mind.
I made a list with prices a couple of months ago, today i need to cash out around 1000€ extra just to buy the stuff on that list and then it contains "old stuff" like DDR4 RAM and 11 gen CPU. Same goes for a decent motherboard.
No way i will cash out that amount of money to get an update.

In that other civil sim i'm down to a locked 30FPS to make it run a bit smooth and still have "some" nice graphics. It's happens not just with ED, it happens in every "demanding" game.
 

[Lurker]

@Lange_666 do you just ignore what everyone posted in this thread? Look at my signature. This has nothing to do with natural upgrade cycles, and throwing more and better hardware at the problem is not the solution! This kind of thing should not be happening on my computer, or on anyone's who has up to date hardware!!!

Edited October 28, 2021 by Lurker

[Lange_666]

But it does and will do so in the future... and yes, i did read everything.

[q800]

God... there's always someone like you. Someone głupio-mądry, as we say it in my country. 

[scampaboy]

All that was in the update eye candy wise was a different effect to water. 
Apart from that nothing visual (yeah I can understand flying f16 with ground radar may cause a hit but I’m not)

The argument of more eye candy = upgrade is false if the patch didn’t have any new eye candy, in this case it had a small adjustment to water.
Before the patch I had locked 60 fps over incirlik Adana and over Damascus/Beirut now it is dropping to 55 in those areas causing stutter and murder with head tracking. If I didn’t have vsync enabled prior to the patch it was was running at 70fps so I locked it at 60. After the patch it barely stays at 60, no change to settings. If I reduce the water from medium to low it still has the same drop in fps with the dodgy edges over water and in clouds. This is all single player with not many units on the map, mission that have made in previous patches ran at 60fps now run at 45. 
My biggest problem is shimmering, to stop the shimmering I have to use 4xMSAA if I use any other antialiasing it’s at 30fps. If I could get away with using 2x MSAA I would have some room to manoeuvre in other settings. 
How about fixing the the problems that were there instead of adding to them, was that memory leak in Syria ever fixed, the trimmer on the hind ever fixed, the vram issue with Syria was it ever fixed, the death rays from the sun blowing all contrast out and shining of every surface it’s all been forgotten about because apache, the problems will still be there when it’s released. I very much doubt any of these problems and the ones highlighted in this topic will ever get fixed before it goes to stable. 

 

[Miro]

And now, hands up who using SSAO, SSLR, i bet 90% pilots disable it at start, personaly i prefer view distance higher than those eyecandies. yes, we will need them, but not now, not yet. Players with low end like me want decent view distance and FPS (i also need terrain objects shadows on default, but may forget about them with GTX 1080). Players with high ends are mainly VR, so what they need? FPS! When all got decent FPS, time for eyecandies. With last patch we got better water, for what? For disabling it, put to low. Why? Because Low ends needs FPS, and High ends VR need FPS also. I really want to buy new rig, for flatscreen, for eyecandies not VR, but that rig (thanks to GPU prices) is halfprice of PPL(A) Pilot licence in my country.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Miro

[Boosterdog]

43 minutes ago, scampaboy said:

My biggest problem is shimmering, to stop the shimmering I have to use 4xMSAA if I use any other antialiasing it’s at 30fps. If I could get away with using 2x MSAA I would have some room to manoeuvre in other settings. 
 

OT and you may already have the stuff done but I recently switched off the Gamma Correction in the NVCP and this helped a lot with shimmer even at 2X MSAA. Not perfect but helped a lot. 

[scampaboy]

43 minutes ago, Boosterdog said:

OT and you may already have the stuff done but I recently switched off the Gamma Correction in the NVCP and this helped a lot with shimmer even at 2X MSAA. Not perfect but helped a lot. 

I’ll have a look to see if it’s enabled 

[Fastbreak]

I have been stopping to buy, I have been stopping to fly for several months, too, due to DCS's substantial performance loss. I do not know the reasons for ED's product development strategy regarding the (absence of) graphics engine modernisation, but I have been shaking my head in disbelief for a long time yet. I do hear news by news about the Apache (a great project without doubt) instead of a regular development status of Vulcan API and CPU multi-threading support in DCS. At the same time I read about all those users reporting on performance issues with DCS 2.7 (me, too) and I find only perfunctory feedback from ED - but let's forget about it...

What kind of immersion do you expect, when you will fly the highly agile combat helicopter Apache (or any other rotor wing) with 30fps? You must be kidding! If ED sucks dry a vintage graphics engine and do not breathe new life into it with latest technologies (Vulcan, DX12 etc.) by return, they will have to take the blame. It is ED's turn to work towards a speedy solution - now and with highest priority.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Fastbreak

[Nevyn]

6 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

I have been stopping to buy, I have been stopping to fly for several months, too, due to DCS's substantial performance loss.

 

+1

[NukeBear01]

ED needs to find a balance between game graphics and performance. When players’ hardware can’t support the smooth running of the current game version and lower they graphics settings, they should get the “old version”  high-level graphics  of the game instead of poor low-level graphics.There are many players who would rather the game graphics level be at 2.5.6 if they can get better game performance. What they really want  is the new modules and the new functions of the old modules.

[Golo]

40 minutes ago, NukeBear01 said:

There are many players who would rather the game graphics level be at 2.5.6 if they can get better game performance. What they really want  is the new modules and the new functions of the old modules.

Yes, absolutely. What is even point of having nice graphics when you are unable to fly with it. Dont get me wrong I love how the version 2.7 looks, but it is not worth loosing half of my FPS over. If you cant do it without significant performance loss, which is most important feature for me, then dont do it. 

ED I suggest instead of testing new versions on your supercomputers, you get mid-low system for that and then decide if its good enough to implement them. Because loosing 30FPS on high end system is inconvenience, on mid-low system it is reason for sim retirement.

[pete_auau]

I  for  one  dont  even  bother looking  at fps  since  once  you start doing  that  it  all goes  down hill from there, as long  as  the  game is  smooth which it is is all i care  about

[Alpiinoo]

On 10/26/2021 at 9:54 AM, mosqui said:

Good morning ED A few days ago I had thought about buying a new module but I canceled the purchase due to a performance problem that prevents me from enjoying your magnificent simulator. The problem has two main causes, the first is that I cannot buy a graphics card powerful enough to be able to play your sim, there are no stocks and the prices are exaggeratedly high. And the other root cause is your simulator, each new update supposes a loss of performance. Perhaps from ED they should start to worry about this, since if there are no graphics cards available and the performance of the sim is every time worst. Who and for what Would you like to buy any new modules?. Think about this and improve your software and do not invest your resources in new modules that no one will buy because it will be impossible to play them satisfactorily. Thank you and I hope that my reflection will help you in your business. Goodbye

I agree with you!

[THERION]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:02 AM, Lange_666 said:

If everything should run on old computers i could have kept my Commordore C-64, even my VIC-20 before that.

That's a really silly remark! People complaining have brand-new GPUs and good CPUs! The game engine needs serious improvements by ED.
And they need to set it on the top of their ToDo list.

Because, if you're building a house and you realize that the basement is weak and leaking, for sure you do not start buying expensive furniture
and marble plates for your bathroom as long as the f***ing basement is not OK, don't you?

[MattCri]

well, most of the times performance issues in dcs are not because of outdated hardware, is because they tend to brute force everything

 

everything run on 2 cores so we have to resort to dumb 5ghz+ overclocks with 80% of our cpus doing literally nothing 

we need huge amounts of ram because without a modern streaming logic we have to preload as much stuff as possible to reduce stuttering and storage bottlenecks

to have good image quality we have to brute force resolution and incredibly expensive 4x msaa and supersampling. Just look at other engines, TAA implementation is almost 10 years old, very light to run and the image quality is even superior. DLSS is amazing if you have a rtx card, amd's FSR is worse but works on every gpu.

 

They are pushing incredibly high quality assets on a old fountation.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by MattCri

[Boosterdog]

2 hours ago, THERION said:

 for sure you do not start buying expensive furniture
and marble plates for your bathroom as long as the f***ing basement is not OK, don't you?

You and my missus need to have a talk!

[THERION]

11 minutes ago, Boosterdog said:

You and my missus need to have a talk!

Anytime you like...

[MAXsenna]

You and my missus need to have a talk!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Lange_666]

3 hours ago, THERION said:

That's a really silly remark! People complaining have brand-new GPUs and good CPUs! The game engine needs serious improvements by ED.
And they need to set it on the top of their ToDo list.

Do you really think ED/DCS is a stand alone in this?
Just read this, it's about MSFS performance and this post handles exactly about the same thing.

Maxis posted:

I "demand" stock ultra !.. When i heard that we were going to get this sim i made a point to build my pc according to the highest recommended specs the game specified. Performance was awesome for what ? till around service update 2 ? So i played the upgrade game  in January so i could keep my visuals the way i wanted them to be without suffering too much at an airport like ORD-JFK-LAX. I will  keep playing the upgrade game to keep the visuals i want. Which is ultimately to fly into JFK  with a system heavy airliner  with ultimate traffic and all the sliders to the right with the fps not dropping below 30fps at slightly above 1440p (render scale 110-115% (value meal 4k). Thankfully the sim is not yet developed for that to be simulated so im actually able to have smooth flights into JFK at present with the FBW A320 but we will see when the PMDG stuff drops and AI traffic bugs get squashed.  (Have a feeling another round of upgrades are in order next year)

Edited October 30, 2021 by Lange_666

[Fastbreak]

6 hours ago, Lange_666 said:

Do you really think ED/DCS is a stand alone in this?

Hello Lange_666,

Seriously, no. But it should not be the question! The problem respectively challenge for all software developers is to regularly adapt to new technologies and optimise their programming for modern hardware capabilities. In view of various expense factors such as personal, knowledge, time, time expenditure etc. a lot of companies might postponene the inevitable measures to the future... 

With regard to ED, they could have started in 2016 with Vulcan 1.0 to modernise DCS graphics engine in time, for the reason that even in earlier versions than 2.7 performance has never been a DCS highlight. Now, at the end of 2021, DCS has ultimately become the dog's breakfast as a result of its performance.

So the question(s) should be in fact:

When has ED started to restructure the program code (2016?) or why have they still not finished the change-over to Vulcan and multi-threading yet (keyword priorisation)?

P.S. With the benefit of hindsight, it’s easy to critizise, but I think above question is indeed legitimate due to the complex of problems reported.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Fastbreak

[ACME_WIdgets]

Dear DCS,
I'm in the global electronics manufacturing business.  Our company buys over $1B in components a year, and we expect the current IC supply crunch to last at LEAST through the end of 2022.  Therefore, I don't expect any RTX30xx GPUs to be in great supply any time soon.
IF the DCS engine performs poorly with existing hardware, and DCS places further demands on PC hardware - with most people NOT being able to upgrade - then I suspect DCS will start losing more and more players (with almost no new players signing on).
Just my opinion.  I hope it's not the case, as I love the simulator.
p.s. - I've been trying to find a RTX 3070 or 3060 ti for under $800 (with a warranty) since February, with no luck.

Edited November 2, 2021 by ACME_WIdgets
typo uncer under