already included Buddy Lasing Support?

[hannibal]

ever since i got pointctrl, i feel more confident to use DCS modules, and now i have recently gotten into the world of buddy lasing and laser guided bombs..

 

So far i see many tutorials of the A10C buddy lasing for other aircraft... will the upcoming DCS Apache support buddy lasing for fast movers?

 

Thanks

[DaemonPhobos]

Well the Apache's is capable of supporting the Tri-Service PRF codes and the USAF, Hellfire and Copperhead PIM laser codes.

So, yeah, pretty much it should be capable of it.

Edited April 28, 2021 by DaemonPhobos

[FalcoGer]

Wouldn't it typically be the other way around? Some high flying drone lasing a target for the apache and the apache shooting a hellfire over a mountain?

[Raptor9]

On 8/19/2021 at 2:56 PM, FalcoGer said:

Wouldn't it typically be the other way around? Some high flying drone lasing a target for the apache and the apache shooting a hellfire over a mountain?

 

Not necessarily, only in a very specific tactical scenario.  Like most things in military operations where a lot of variables affect which tactics are used...it depends.

[AvroLanc]

The most common tactic for buddy lasing would be for two Apaches or 1 x AH-64 and 1 x KW. A KW up close and lasing while the Apaches lie behind cover out of LOS and shoot Hellfire in LOAL mode.  

[slyvenne]

I thought the hellfire are radar guided by the apache. Is the laser is a real pointer like Listening and Atflir that can guide a gbu12? Or more a range finder/specific own missile like gazelle or ka50?

[SkateZilla]

even with Radar Guided Hellfire, You can have 1 Apache mask, and send radar contacts via network.,

[AvroLanc]

Note that the RF (Radar Guided) Hellfire doesn't even need the Longbow FCR to work. It's a self contained seeker in the missile. All it needs is a target location and it will go out and find the target, either locking on before or after launch. The TADs can supply the target location and it can also be passed over the data link. 

 

Over the datalink, targets can be passed either as a 'One-off' RF 'handover', or as a set of targets in a pre-configured battlefield 'ZONE' that has been scanned by the FCR. 

 

IRL I don't think Apaches would routinely work hand in hand with fast jets etc. Maybe in the E model more common (Link 16, drones etc). So in DCS that would be a bit gamey.

[Whirley]

Can the pilot lock and lase targets? If not I hope the George AI will be able to lase targets without engaging them. So we can lase targets in multiplayer servers with only one player in the helicopter

[shagrat]

Am 11.9.2021 um 18:37 schrieb AvroLanc:

 

IRL I don't think Apaches would routinely work hand in hand with fast jets etc. Maybe in the E model more common (Link 16, drones etc). So in DCS that would be a bit gamey.

IRL the Apaches definitely marked targets with laser for fast jets in a CAS stack. Not necessarily guiding the bombs, but pointing the Jet's TGP/Eyes onto the right spot via LSS. Nevertheless the TADS should also be able to guide any LGB, as well as APKWS or LJDAM. 

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

No, only CPG seat has access to laser.  Back seat can still launch but only as a remote (for K Models)

 

Or the backseat can launch the missile while the CPG lases for it. It would be silly because if the CPG is already looking at the target, and lasing the target, might as well let him fire it. But it is possible nonetheless.

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, kgillers3 said:

 Irrelevant to the question that was originally asked but yes.

 

You said the pilot could only launch for remote engagements.  That's incorrect.  The relevancy to the question you were responding to had nothing to do with my response.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Raptor9

[Raptor9]

@kgillers3, I wasn't trying to start a flame war, I was simply providing clarification of something you said that wasn't quite accurate.

[Raptor9]

@kgillers3, I didn't take any offense. It's not an issue.

[Mordant]

I am no expert on the Apache and im just shooting in the dark, but will lasing from Apache for a buddy or Buddy for Apaches' Hellfire be supported upon release or into development? I personally can't think of why this would not be implemented but as I said I don't have any evidence for or against it.

 

Just want to be a helo AFAC for my hawg buddies

[Remco]

Absolutely. As someone that has done FAC(A) for, among other aircraft, hawg's in afghanistan from an Apache not only can it buddy lase, that front seat is an absolutely excellent FAC(A) office with the amount of SA you have up there. It can lase any PRF and PIM code, unlike some other DCS aircraft that can only lase PRF, so whatever you want lased the Apache can lase it, and likewise anybody can lase for your Hellfires (as long as you're using PRF codes for the hellfire, might be limited with PIM because I'm not sure a lot of aircraft are capable of PIM in DCS).

[QuiGon]

On 11/8/2021 at 9:18 PM, Remco said:

Absolutely. As someone that has done FAC(A) for, among other aircraft, hawg's in afghanistan from an Apache not only can it buddy lase, that front seat is an absolutely excellent FAC(A) office with the amount of SA you have up there. It can lase any PRF and PIM code, unlike some other DCS aircraft that can only lase PRF, so whatever you want lased the Apache can lase it, and likewise anybody can lase for your Hellfires (as long as you're using PRF codes for the hellfire, might be limited with PIM because I'm not sure a lot of aircraft are capable of PIM in DCS).

What's PIM and how does it differ from PRF?

Edited November 10, 2021 by QuiGon

[Remco]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

What's PIM and how does it differ from PRF?

 

Pulsed Repetition Frequency (PRF) codes are the codes you are commonly used to between 1111 and 1788.

Pulsed Interval Modulation (PIM) codes are 2111 and up.

I'm not going to get to into the weeds on how exactly PIM works for obvious reasons but suffice to say it's a modulated laser code format designed to overcome certain laser defense systems. Both the weapon needs to be set to a PIM code and the designating unit needs to be capable of lasing PIM codes for it to work (which both K and up model Hellfire, and the Apache's TADS can do)

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, Remco said:

Pulsed Repetition Frequency (PRF) codes are the codes you are commonly used to between 1111 and 1788.

Pulsed Interval Modulation (PIM) codes are 2111 and up.

I'm not going to get to into the weeds on how exactly PIM works for obvious reasons but suffice to say it's a modulated laser code format designed to overcome certain laser defense systems. Both the weapon needs to be set to a PIM code and the designating unit needs to be capable of lasing PIM codes for it to work (which both K and up model Hellfire, and the Apache's TADS can do)

Thanks, that's already quite helpful!

I'm a bit suprised by the "laser defense" bit though. Besides the fact that I've never heard about laser defense so far, I would have expected this to be relevant in regards to weaponized high energy lasers, but not so much when it comes to laser target designation.

Edited November 10, 2021 by QuiGon

[Remco]

16 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Thanks, that's already quite helpful!

I'm a bit suprised by the "laser defense" bit though. Besides the fact that I've never heard about laser defense so far, I would have expected this to be relevant in regards to weaponized high energy lasers, but not so much when it comes to laser target designation.

 

Laser defense as in laser jamming systems like Shtora, aka the T-90 evil eyes.

That said I highly doubt that much detail will be modeled in DCS apart from the availability of codes in the 2111-5888 range, and we might be derailing this thread a bit 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Remco

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, Remco said:

That said I highly doubt that much detail will be modeled in DCS apart from the availability of codes in the 2111-5888 range, and we might be derailing this thread a bit 

Indeed, I was just interested in the background

Edited November 10, 2021 by QuiGon

[DaemonPhobos]

from what i understand the PIM codes use channel hopping techniques unlike the PRF which are single channel, i also wonder if DCS will model the pulses per second of atleast the PRF codes affecting guidance, the lower the code number, the higher the pulses per second, therefore, the better the missile guidance should be.

[Frederf]

The old 0 (aka 3-digit codes) and 1-starting codes PRF are not that secure. it sounds like the 2+ PIM codes have some security built into them.

The 1000 series codes indeed take different amounts of time to go through so some are better than others when seconds matter. An LGB also needs to see the entire code so if misses the beginning of the code it has to get the next one. As such in the worst case nearly two full code durations have to elapse before the bomb accepts a code and will maneuver.

[Remco]

27 minutes ago, Frederf said:

The old 0 (aka 3-digit codes) and 1-starting codes PRF are not that secure. it sounds like the 2+ PIM codes have some security built into them.

The 1000 series codes indeed take different amounts of time to go through so some are better than others when seconds matter. An LGB also needs to see the entire code so if misses the beginning of the code it has to get the next one. As such in the worst case nearly two full code durations have to elapse before the bomb accepts a code and will maneuver.

True, but just to be clear we're talking fractions of a second here. 1111 pulses 20 times a second and in the higher range of PRF codes that's about halved, which is still a full guidance pulse every ~0.1 seconds. That said, we are still recommended to use the lower end of codes where possible just in case (which is why the default in DCS being 1688 amuses me).

I'm assuming this isn't modeled in DCS at all though.