AIM-54 Hotfix PSA and Feedback Thread - Guided Discussion

[captain_dalan]

6 hours ago, draconus said:

The tests would be better if the missiles fly straight, not descending or ascending.

 

 

If fired in similar conditions, around m1.1 the top speed reached in a fairly level flight is between m2.4 and m2.5, or roughly 2.46 which is in the ballpark estimates of napkin math when adjusted for atmospheric pressure and  density. 

Tacview-20220211-154635-DCS-missile tests f14A low alt mk60.zip.acmi

[IronMike]

1 hour ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

On the same note of the 54C - when can we expect the spicific improvements to that one when it comes to CCM, active logic etc. which was mentioned a while ago? Do you mind sharing what changes are planned for it?

We're currently investigating the implementation, and do not want to spill the beans before we know more about what exactly will be possible. We hope to have an update on that soon, thank you for your kind patience in the meantime.

[IronMike]

9 hours ago, draconus said:

Aren't AI reacting (turning) quick enough to still have the same radar picture when you turn for the launch?

They do, but if you watch the tacviews in that long winded reply of mine with the tacviews of the PG BVR mission, you can see how they do not maneuver to lead intercept you as a 2 ship. Instead they will split and by the time they come back, they will have some nice and juicy separation for your AWG9 to have easier pickings. Skating is nothing I ever observed the AI to do.

[bonesvf103]

17 hours ago, IronMike said:

I meant the tacview in this reply @bonesvf103 The explanations are also above.

OK, thanks.  I see in the one where you cranked, you only cranked maybe 20 degrees or something small like that and it still hit.  So what would you say is the ideal amount of crank you should use?  I've been using 40-50 ATA so that it would be harder for them to lock me (and easier for me to escape with only 40 deg left to beam) while still allowing my radar to see them.  Is that excessive in this case being I'm shooting a Phoenix?  OR is a little bit fine since the real point of the crank is to get the targets to separate as one tries to intercept me?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

[IronMike]

17 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

OK, thanks.  I see in the one where you cranked, you only cranked maybe 20 degrees or something small like that and it still hit.  So what would you say is the ideal amount of crank you should use?  I've been using 40-50 ATA so that it would be harder for them to lock me (and easier for me to escape with only 40 deg left to beam) while still allowing my radar to see them.  Is that excessive in this case being I'm shooting a Phoenix?  OR is a little bit fine since the real point of the crank is to get the targets to separate as one tries to intercept me?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

It depends, on the bandit, if AI or human, what type of bandit, what kind of weapons he has, range alt speed, own and bandit's... You practice many different setups, you get a feel for it. In this case they are AI 29As... with R27rs... who will break lock at the slightest whim of a missile heading for them ... You need no big defensive action at all, you just push and crush em as fast you can, they are nothing to you.

Compare with the attached tacview.

 

PG_BVR_15NM_Ideal_Cmk47.zip.acmi

Edited February 12, 2022 by IronMike

[draconus]

11 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

I've been using 40-50 ATA so that it would be harder for them to lock me (and easier for me to escape with only 40 deg left to beam) while still allowing my radar to see them.

Cranking doesn't make you harder to lock. It's about F-pole (video I embeded earlier). You decrease the closure rate making you harder to reach with enemy missiles while still mainaining the lock (or guidance for TWS) for your own missiles.

Edited February 12, 2022 by draconus

[SignorMagnifico]

On 2/9/2022 at 9:39 PM, NeedzWD40 said:

Is there a maximum pitch angle when launching the AIM-54? I was doing some spur of the moment shoots on an AI F-4E from 90-120nmi and my profile was ~30,000ft at M0.9, with a 30deg pitch for launch angle. The AIM-54C climbed up to ~150,000ft and maintained some ridiculous energy, but sailed right over the target at this altitude rather than diving down. A similar result occurred with the AMk60, though the max altitude was ~110,000ft and it seemed to take too long to descend and just gave up at the last moment. When I reduced my initial pitch to 10-15deg, performance seemed to be a lot better, with maximum altitudes in the 100,000ft range for all types.

I’ve been noticing this as well. Shooting at 30k-40k ft at a target 50-65nm away, if I pitch up 30 degrees to maximize the loft, the missile often overshoots the target after going into space, usually flying directly over the target. This results in the missile failing to track the target after reaching the pitbull distance.

Here is a link to a YouTube video of the issue recorded today. I tried to include a track file, but, as usual, it doesn't work for the F-14. I tried running the mission from a server and saved the server track, but it's still completely off. 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by SignorMagnifico
YouTube link added. The track file is worthless.

[trenchfeet]

Try between 10-15 deg also if bandit is at 30k you are at 40k dive fast to 30ishk

[TOMCATZ]

Hi,

For me, the steering control, or better the logic behind it, makes absolutely no sense anymore. 
During the cruise flight, the Phoenix does not receive any updates. The only sense to stay hot for the target is that the AIM54 will get the signal to switch active at some point. However, this is useless if the target has moved. 
Often, even at short ranges, an incredible loft is executed which renders the missiles completely useless. 
In the endgame, opponents often try to go for the beam. However, they remain on the Tomcat's radar. However, these updates do not get to the missile, which makes no sense. But even if the lock is preserved, the missile does not pull more than 6g. Yes sure- it is very big and heavy but in the end game it burned the fuel and it has extremely large control surfaces. From my point of view, this flying body is much more flexible and maneuverable than this free-falling brick here. 

But (!) : The new aerodynamic model is really very well done and fun. If only the steering and control logic would be improved, I would be totally happy again. In any case, thanks to the team for your hard work and pioneering achievements. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by TOMCATZ

[IronMike]

5 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

Hi,

For me, the steering control, or better the logic behind it, makes absolutely no sense anymore. 
During the cruise flight, the Phoenix does not receive any updates. The only sense to stay hot for the target is that the AIM54 will get the signal to switch active at some point. However, this is useless if the target has moved. 
Often, even at short ranges, an incredible loft is executed which renders the missiles completely useless. 
In the endgame, opponents often try to go for the beam. However, they remain on the Tomcat's radar. However, these updates do not get to the missile, which makes no sense. But even if the lock is preserved, the missile does not pull more than 6g. Yes sure- it is very big and heavy but in the end game it burned the fuel and it has extremely large control surfaces. From my point of view, this flying body is much more flexible and maneuverable than this free-falling brick here. 

But (!) : The new aerodynamic model is really very well done and fun. If only the steering and control logic would be improved, I would be totally happy again. In any case, thanks to the team for your hard work and pioneering achievements. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you. Are these online or offline?

[Callsign JoNay]

On 2/12/2022 at 9:27 AM, SignorMagnifico said:

 

 

 

Looks to me like there's something up with the guidance during the cruise phase, like someone above said. Over-assisting the missile loft in combination with target size small is probably not the best technique to use right now.

[Hector45]

11 hours ago, TOMCATZ said:

Hi,

For me, the steering control, or better the logic behind it, makes absolutely no sense anymore. 
During the cruise flight, the Phoenix does not receive any updates. The only sense to stay hot for the target is that the AIM54 will get the signal to switch active at some point. However, this is useless if the target has moved. 
Often, even at short ranges, an incredible loft is executed which renders the missiles completely useless. 
In the endgame, opponents often try to go for the beam. However, they remain on the Tomcat's radar. However, these updates do not get to the missile, which makes no sense. But even if the lock is preserved, the missile does not pull more than 6g. Yes sure- it is very big and heavy but in the end game it burned the fuel and it has extremely large control surfaces. From my point of view, this flying body is much more flexible and maneuverable than this free-falling brick here. 

But (!) : The new aerodynamic model is really very well done and fun. If only the steering and control logic would be improved, I would be totally happy again. In any case, thanks to the team for your hard work and pioneering achievements. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I've observed online, it seems to loft too much for it's own good so during the terminal phase it's coming down like a lawn dart.

[TOMCATZ]

Hallo Mike,

 

yes- all of these were online. Unfortunately I deleted my TacView folder a week ago but I hope that these last flights show a little bit my problems with. Thank you very much. 

 

TOM

[SignorMagnifico]

20 hours ago, trenchfeet said:

Try between 10-15 deg also if bandit is at 30k you are at 40k dive fast to 30ishk

Thank you for the advice, but I know how to use a Phoenix missile. The missile works fine under these circumstances. What I am saying is that it does not work when fired at 30 degrees. The expected behavior is that the missile should use the extra energy to intercept the target with the extra loft. However, the missile instead overflies the target and fails to track.

 

11 hours ago, IronMike said:

Thank you. Are these online or offline?

For me, the problem happens both online and offline. Unfortunately, I cannot provide tracks since they do not work.

[ldnz]

This is not a behaviour i've seen at all, and I've done a lot of 30 deg loft shots at many different ranges. The only time I've seen it go into space is if the track was immediately lost.

Attached is a representative tacview of a ~30nm shot with a 30 deg loft, both track, one kill, one lost in the notch.  

Tacview-20220206-153720-DCS-f14 bvr range.zip.acmi

[Clunk1001]

Lots of technical data in this post which is way above my head…..I thought I was getting the hang of the f14 and the phoenix,  lots of successful missions in Liberation.  But now only about 20% of my phoenix missiles actually seem to hit their target…..wheras 90% of enemy missiles hit me.  It feels about as useful as shooting a Zuni rocket from 30 miles.  I think read that it’s more ‘realistic’ now but were these missiles really that garbage? (Or is my flying really that garbage)?

Edited February 14, 2022 by Clunk1001

[Hummingbird]

Just tested the AIM-54C & AIM-120C against a MiG-29 coming in head on at 20 kft, launched both at 35 kft and 35 NM, and the AIM-120 will reach and kill the MiG-29 everytime, whilst the AIM-54C will run out of the energy necessary to allow it to hit the MiG-29 as it goes defensive. 

In short it now seems like the AIM-120 has a noticably longer no escape zone.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Clunk1001 said:

I think read that it’s more ‘realistic’ now but were these missiles really that garbage? (Or is my flying really that garbage)?

Just read the OP again.

[near_blind]

1 hour ago, Clunk1001 said:

 I think read that it’s more ‘realistic’ now but were these missiles really that garbage? (Or is my flying really that garbage)?

The missile isn't garbage. It has an envelope, and within that envelope it is effective and can do things that no other missile in the game can currently do. Outside of that envelope, it suffers rather drastically. The challenge for you as a pilot is to understand the extent of the envelope, and shape the engagement such that you can utilize the AIM-54 within it. 

[lunaticfringe]

3 hours ago, Clunk1001 said:

I think read that it’s more ‘realistic’ now but were these missiles really that garbage? (Or is my flying really that garbage)?

 

Like near_blind said- you have to learn the envelope.  

From above, DSPlayer's 95 nm strike in a SATAC match on the current build:

https://m.twitch.tv/clip/BillowingFlirtyOtterItsBoshyTime-QfUL_L8yOCZGBOzh?tt_medium=mobile_web_share&tt_content=clips_viewing

Note his altitude and Mach number at launch in the other clip on Breakshot's wall. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[bonesvf103]

IronMike,

 

Still not having much lcuk.  This time I did Dragon Tooth and I climbed up to nearly 40000 ft, gave a crank, saw the 4 bandits at 35000 or so.  Got valid launch cues, turned nose back on, raised it about 15 degrees in full burn to give the Phoenixes as much oomph as possible, and launched all 4.  I kept them illuminated on the nose, then with a slight crank.  All 4 missiles missed.  One looked beamed, the others looked chaffed, but some didn't even care about chaff or maneuvering, they just sailed on by.

I dunno.  What did I do wrong?  Or is this just the AIM-54A mk47 being easily chaffed?

v6,

boNes

Tacview-20220214-153429-DCS.zip.acmi

[near_blind]

It's real hard to tell what's going on with the tracks all clustered like that with that range setting, but it looks like one was decoyed by chaff, and 2 or 3 tracks went into extrapolation, such that the missiles never got the active signal. 

[bonesvf103]

2 hours ago, near_blind said:

It's real hard to tell what's going on with the tracks all clustered like that with that range setting, but it looks like one was decoyed by chaff, and 2 or 3 tracks went into extrapolation, such that the missiles never got the active signal. 

Sorry, I can't get Jester to change range display to less via VAICOM Pro otherwise they wouldn't be so clustered together.  But the radar would still see them the same regardless of the way it's displayed on the TID right?

v6,

boNes

[Biggus]

Is there a target size setting that people are finding more success with than others?  I'd usually select small against fighters, however I'm wondering whether there might be some big advantages to having the missile go active a bit earlier.

[Callsign JoNay]

3 minutes ago, Biggus said:

Is there a target size setting that people are finding more success with than others?  I'd usually select small against fighters, however I'm wondering whether there might be some big advantages to having the missile go active a bit earlier.

Against AI there is never a reason to not use large, IMO. Against humans is a different story.