Ka-50 vs Apache what do you prefer?

[River]

The Apache FM is really bad, collective and anti torque way too jumpy. Unstable in roll at hover. Everything feels instant, like lack of inertia. It just doesn't settle on an attitude like the other helos we have. It wanders without inputs even if perfectly trimmed out. I hate to say this but it's the closest FM to the Gazelle in game. 

That thing is packed with high tech stability systems, it should hover like a rock. 

The Mi 8, Mi 24, Ka 50, even the Huey hover like a proper helicopter. Zero issues with them.

The mighty Apache is a pain to operate at low speeds and it is the most advanced of the bunch. 

I am expecting big FM changes in the future, otherwise it's a joke. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by River

[Tenebrae Aeternae]

4 minutes ago, River said:

I am expecting big FM changes in the future, otherwise it's a joke. 

There are loads of FM related stuff in the "Ongoing tasks for later updates" section of the latest changelog, and they have mentioned it earlier aswell so known issues.

[pii]

8 hours ago, River said:

it should hover like a rock.

I don't think Rocks can hover at all.  and the FM is a WIP. When it is 10 years old it will be were the Ka is today. Just needs more time in the oven. They call it Early Access, perhaps you've heard of it?

[AegisFX]

I was trying to fly the black shark 2 when it was still a standalone title. (First module I bought and never used tbh) Vs now, with the Apache in VR and with more than a saitek x52pro and saitek combat pedals..

 

I also think the Apache is a better bird, with the potential being much more than the Ka-50 ever was. *Assuming we get all that they've listed as of today.*

Edit: I see some discussion of George, and I understand it's WIP, but it's definitely the worst part of my experience right now besides trying to fly with the winwing hornet controls.

Edited October 29, 2022 by AegisFX

[Swift.]

15 hours ago, River said:

it should hover like a rock. 

It does, the problem is the pilots at the controls keep moving said controls, causing issues.

[Floyd1212]

It used to hover like a (hovering) rock, until they broke the ALT Hold. Looking forward to it returning to its previous form. Maybe in another month…

[Dallas88B]

14 hours ago, pii said:

They call it Early Access, perhaps you've heard of it?

13 aircraft in early access.
Some in early access since 2017. 
29 aircraft 'released'.
More than 30% of the aircraft product range is in early access.
So yes. 
 

14 hours ago, pii said:

When it is 10 years old it will be were the Ka is today

Oh good. That soon! Yay. Don't know what I was thinking. I should have waited till 2033 to purchase the Apache.

 

[pii]

7 hours ago, Dallas88B said:

13 aircraft in early access.
Some in early access since 2017. 
29 aircraft 'released'.
More than 30% of the aircraft product range is in early access.
So yes. 
 

Oh good. That soon! Yay. Don't know what I was thinking. I should have waited till 2033 to purchase the Apache.

 

So you've heard of EA. good! Now do you understand what it means?

It means you have two choices, either buy EA or Don't, its up to you. But if you buy EA you don't get to bitch about it not being done, until ED says its done, then bitch away.

Nuff said

[pii]

15 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

It used to hover like a (hovering) rock, until they broke the ALT Hold. Looking forward to it returning to its previous form. Maybe in another month…

This. 

[Dallas88B]

7 hours ago, pii said:

you don't get to bitch about it not being done, until ED says its done, then bitch away.

Direct your trolling venom elsewhere. No "bitching" messages came from me. 

[River]

Personal preference I know but flying the Apache with George AI is a no go for me, no matter how good the AI CPG is. Switching seats kills immersion aswell. 

Flying the Tomcat, Apache, Hind, etc with a human copilot is perfection but I can't bring myself using an AI interface. 

[Dallas88B]

2 hours ago, River said:

with a human copilot is perfection

I appreciate what you saying. In the other sim I used to fly with a friend and it was the best time... having a wingman, being able to talk to each other, to enjoy the experience "together" (even though we live about 1000km apart) is really excellent. I can see this is true of the Apache too when I watch folk on Youtube videos.

But  must say, as somebody who always flys alone, I really appreciate ED's efforts with the AI and that the option to use it exists. I expect in years to come the AI will just get better and better. (I am old enough to remember when video games was playing space invaders for 20c a game at the pub...just imagine what the AI will be like in 10 or 20 years time). Keep it up ED ! 

[cdrkrotchetyusn]

Hind.

3 minutes ago, cdrkrotchetyusn said:

Hind.

What? are you crazy? this is a post about Blackshark and Apache!

Because I can make the Hind do anything I want in the air.

[Schmidtfire]

What I really miss at the moment is a Free Fire option for George AI.

There are many situations when I am facing large formations of soldiers and vehicles. Sometimes under fire. Gun selected.

IT MAKES ZERO SENSE in that situation to designate every single individual soldier, truck and btr.

I want George to  be able to fire and engage the entire group in rapid succession. It’s essential when using the Gun.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

10 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

IT MAKES ZERO SENSE in that situation to designate every single individual soldier, truck and btr. I want George to  be able to fire and engage the entire group in rapid succession. It’s essential when using the Gun.

+1

[pii]

On 10/30/2022 at 5:48 PM, Dallas88B said:

Direct your trolling venom elsewhere. No "bitching" messages came from me. 

lol 

[DoctorVixen]

It's hard, the Apache looks way cooler, has the nicer model, better sounds.

Thing is, I did not really enjoy flying the Apache, both the Apache itself and George feel like a burden, the training missions where really bad, The feeling u get from the DCS Apache is not this feeling of a powerfull gunship but more the feeling of  a sitting duck.

The Ka-50 is much more enjoyable in my opinion.

 

On 11/10/2022 at 3:03 PM, Schmidtfire said:

What I really miss at the moment is a Free Fire option for George AI.

There are many situations when I am facing large formations of soldiers and vehicles. Sometimes under fire. Gun selected.

IT MAKES ZERO SENSE in that situation to designate every single individual soldier, truck and btr.

I want George to  be able to fire and engage the entire group in rapid succession. It’s essential when using the Gun.

I wish  George had an ejection seat that could be operated from the pilots cabin.

[Rogue Trooper]

The Apache FM is really sweet, very reactive to your input. Mass and airframe dynamics seem to have significant effect on the speeds you are travelling.

I love the anti-torgue roll in the AH-64..... I really love it!

These effects seem to be constantly changing and are always fluid. They seem to cause a larger workload on the virtual pilot. Whether it is right or wrong it feels superb.

The Apache and Hind are for me the best modules DCS have ever produced.

The future KA-50 BS3 with this level of modelling just makes me droool!.... predator class gunship!

Edited November 21, 2022 by Rogue Trooper

[X_legio]

I own both, difficult make a choice, in single player KA50 is for sure far far better, but if you have a friend a shared AH64 is the best fun. If I have to choose probably I will say KA, mostly because I often play SP, the FD is very good, the learning curve is faster than the AH64 and it's cheaper

[BalticDude]

On 10/28/2022 at 11:49 PM, River said:

The Apache FM is really bad, collective and anti torque way too jumpy. Unstable in roll at hover. Everything feels instant, like lack of inertia. It just doesn't settle on an attitude like the other helos we have. It wanders without inputs even if perfectly trimmed out. I hate to say this but it's the closest FM to the Gazelle in game. 

That thing is packed with high tech stability systems, it should hover like a rock. 

The Mi 8, Mi 24, Ka 50, even the Huey hover like a proper helicopter. Zero issues with them.

The mighty Apache is a pain to operate at low speeds and it is the most advanced of the bunch. 

I am expecting big FM changes in the future, otherwise it's a joke. 

 

They have Apache pilots helping them out, and this opinion you hold that the Apache is somehow god's helicopter with no issues and superior to all is blatantly wrong and biased. The Apache's FM is very close to real life as confirmed by Apache pilots. Just because Ka-50's hover capability is better doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the Apache's FM.

[Swift.]

On 10/29/2022 at 8:49 AM, River said:

The Apache FM is really bad, collective and anti torque way too jumpy. Unstable in roll at hover. Everything feels instant, like lack of inertia. It just doesn't settle on an attitude like the other helos we have. It wanders without inputs even if perfectly trimmed out. I hate to say this but it's the closest FM to the Gazelle in game. 

That thing is packed with high tech stability systems, it should hover like a rock. 

The Mi 8, Mi 24, Ka 50, even the Huey hover like a proper helicopter. Zero issues with them.

The mighty Apache is a pain to operate at low speeds and it is the most advanced of the bunch. 

I am expecting big FM changes in the future, otherwise it's a joke. 

 

I find myself wholeheartedly disagreeing with your sentiment. I have no RL flight experience, but I can confidently say that if the apache we have in game becomes any less sensitive it will become too dull to control. And you will end up in PIO city.

This is a short vid I made a while back. 0 curves, 0 extension, 100% saturation, 0 deadzone.

 

[cow_art]

35 minutes ago, Swift. said:

I find myself wholeheartedly disagreeing with your sentiment. I have no RL flight experience, but I can confidently say that if the apache we have in game becomes any less sensitive it will become too dull to control. And you will end up in PIO city.

This is a short vid I made a while back. 0 curves, 0 extension, 100% saturation, 0 deadzone.

 

Thats a good hover! But could you do the same hover, interrupt the force trim and slowly turn right until you precisely face the house? Without losing balance or overshooting in any direction?  Not saying its impossible, but even with way more curves than you have (I have about 50% Y saturation on my pedals) I find such precision maneuvers insanely hard in the Apache. I find I must move the pedals only millimeters and getting that wrong by just a tiny fraction immediately results in a way more violent yaw response than I had been aiming for.  If this is indeed how sensitive the Apache's pedals are in a hover, then my highest admiration to everyone who is able to confidently fly this beast in real life.

Edited December 4, 2022 by cow_art

[Swift.]

22 minutes ago, cow_art said:

Thats a good hover! But could you do the same hover, interrupt the force trim and slowly turn right until you precisely face the house? Without losing balance or overshooting in any direction?  Not saying its impossible, but even with way more curves than you have (I have about 50% Y saturation on my pedals) I find such precision maneuvers insanely hard in the Apache. I find I must move the pedals only millimeters and getting that wrong by just a tiny fraction immediately results in a way more violent yaw response than I had been aiming for.  If this is indeed how sensitive the Apache's pedals are in a hover, then my highest admiration to everyone who is able to confidently fly this beast in real life.

 

Like this?

 

[cow_art]

41 minutes ago, Swift. said:

Like this?

 

yea exactly!

Shame you don't have the controls indicator turned on in this video. When I do this I have to make extremely small pedal inputs (so small they are almost imperceptible in the controls indicator). I'll try to upload a video where you can see what I mean.

It just really surprises me that such extremely subtle pedal inputs are required and I wonder if that's realistic. Other sim helicopters sure feel a lot less sensitive in the yaw axis (exept maybe the Gazelle, but let's not talk about the Gazelle ).

Edited December 4, 2022 by cow_art

[cow_art]

5 hours ago, cow_art said:

yea exactly!

Shame you don't have the controls indicator turned on in this video. When I do this I have to make extremely small pedal inputs (so small they are almost imperceptible in the controls indicator). I'll try to upload a video where you can see what I mean.

It just really surprises me that such extremely subtle pedal inputs are required and I wonder if that's realistic. Other sim helicopters sure feel a lot less sensitive in the yaw axis (exept maybe the Gazelle, but let's not talk about the Gazelle ).

 

Video here:

 

I face the red house in front of me, then turn right to the tower, stop, turn back to the red house, stop, then left to the silo (and overshoot a bit because I still suck at this), stop, then finally I turn back to face the red house again.

As I said, the pedal movements I needed for this are EXTREMELY small (almost invisible in the controls indicator).

Edit: DCS Open Beta, no mods. All maneuvers done by pressing and holding FTR at the beginning of the turn, then releasing the FTR once I am facing in the desired direction (because without holding FTR, the heading hold autopilot will cancel out the tiny pedal adjustments and effectively prevent me from turning slowly)

Edited December 4, 2022 by cow_art