Work on Combined Arms

[Apocalypse31]

On 9/27/2022 at 1:58 PM, Silver_Dragon said:

If this were so easy, it is very rare that nobody or ED in 10 years, would not have done it already.

Steel Beasts does it, so I'm not sure where you got this idea that its a totally unique problem. 

[mmarques]

How about crowd sourcing some new and higher res textures for older existing models like the BMPs T-80U and such?

Surely a lot of people would be very happy to contribute and the manpower required for ED would be quite minimal if any.

[Silver_Dragon]

5 hours ago, Apocalypse31 said:

Steel Beasts does it, so I'm not sure where you got this idea that its a totally unique problem. 

On DCS World, ED and others 3rd Parties, no other external companies outside them. We know very well what making eSim games.

You are a retired military, I have seen your videos and explanations of how a BTC force should work in the battlefield, and the limitations of Strikers and LAVs and other vehicles, not only in CA, but in DCS World.

The chronic lack of artificial intelligence between units and the null logic of working as a military unit. I've read the BTC manuals on fire and movement (FM 3-21.10 / FM 3-21.11 / FM 3-21.21) and I'm surprised that no one in 10 years has bothered to do anything "minimally" realistic. I get that it's a horrible job and that DCS is not a ground sim, but someone should at least put in some "building block" to start correcting this, either by adding Battle Drills and Tactical Movement.

And beware, this information is not restrictive, it is freely available on the Internet.
TACTICAL MOVEMENT (THE SBCT INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD FM 3-21.9)
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-9/chap3.htm
UsArmy Field Manuals
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/index.html

Sorry about the language barrier, I've never been in the military (because of poor eyesight), but I've read a lot about it, although I know I've only scratched the surface (there's a lot unavailable). But I think it's a good base to start improving the "land environment" on DCS.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Silver_Dragon

[Callsign112]

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

On DCS World, ED and others 3rd Parties, no other external companies outside them. We know very well what making eSim games.

You are a retired military, I have seen your videos and explanations of how a BTC force should work in the battlefield, and the limitations of Strikers and LAVs and other vehicles, not only in CA, but in DCS World.

The chronic lack of artificial intelligence between units and the null logic of working as a military unit. I've read the BTC manuals on fire and movement (FM 3-21.10 / FM 3-21.11 / FM 3-21.21) and I'm surprised that no one in 10 years has bothered to do anything "minimally" realistic. I get that it's a horrible job and that DCS is not a ground sim, but someone should at least put in some "building block" to start correcting this, either by adding Battle Drills and Tactical Movement.

And beware, this information is not restrictive, it is freely available on the Internet.
TACTICAL MOVEMENT (THE SBCT INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD FM 3-21.9)
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-21-9/chap3.htm
UsArmy Field Manuals
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/index.html

Sorry about the language barrier, I've never been in the military (because of poor eyesight), but I've read a lot about it, although I know I've only scratched the surface (there's a lot unavailable). But I think it's a good base to start improving the "land environment" on DCS.

 

Regardless of whether you are using a translation tool or not, you posts are always well read SD. Always enjoy reading your posts. Couldn't agree more, it would be nice to see some of the improvements you mentioned make it into DCS World.

[Wychmaster]

Am 1.10.2022 um 20:35 schrieb Silver_Dragon:

... but someone should at least put in some "building block" to start correcting this, either by adding Battle Drills and Tactical Movement ...

 

Am 1.10.2022 um 22:16 schrieb Callsign112:

... it would be nice to see some of the improvements you mentioned make it into DCS World.

 

Well, if 1 or 2 of you guys have some coding experience, we could at least create a lua-script using the DCS scripting engine. I already experimented a bit with it and most stuff should be possible to some degree.

When I tested the capabilities of the scripting engine, I coded a pretty simple script for ground attack aircrafts to fly into a target zone, pick individual targets inside that zone using a priority list (air defenses first, then armor, supplies, etc.). They also picked suitable weapons, engagement vectors and heights so that they don't just fly into the target zone and get shot down by the AD systems in the backfield or nearby manpads.

All this should also be possible for ground units with one minor difficulty: Ground units have just a single "brain". For planes and helicopters you can program the behavior of every group member individually. For ground units, this is not possible yet (probably to avoid overloading the CPU). However, we could code around this by introducing our own group system. For example, for a tank platoon, we would use 4 DCS groups with just a single tank and add them to an extra group in the lua script. Every command given to any of those tanks will be mirrored to the other platoon members. However, we would also need to add own movement scripts for formations because we couldn't use the DCS formations for obvious reasons, but that shouldn't be too hard. However, once that is done, it would come with the additional benefit that we would have "total control" over the formation and unit coordination.

Here is a small list of things that would be possible (or at least I have ideas how to realize it with the scripting engine):

- Firing zones for group members

- Tanks can take a "hull down" position if ordered

- Selecting different distances between group members inside of a formation

- "Smart reactions" to threats

- Control engagement distances (no more wasting ammo on targets that are too far away )

- Platoon/group internal engagement maneuvers

- coordinating IFVs to load/unload infantry as needed and to coordinate a combined advance and react to threats

- multiple groups can perform coordinated attacks (different attack angles, kill zones, etc.)

- smart artillery firing support

- calling and coordinating CAS

- some kind of automated mastermind for battlegroups

and many more. The DCS scripting engine is quite powerful and I already have a private GitHub repo where I started implementing some things I need to create interesting CA missions, but it is not much yet (had a longer DCS break and a lot of other coding stuff to do). So if some of you have a bit coding experiences, we might be able to realize some of the mentioned features. Just let me know and I would invite you to join the repository. If I have to do all the stuff myself, advances would take ages. Working with others is always more motivating

[Callsign112]

On 11/6/2022 at 7:13 AM, Wychmaster said:

 

 

Well, if 1 or 2 of you guys have some coding experience, we could at least create a lua-script using the DCS scripting engine. I already experimented a bit with it and most stuff should be possible to some degree.

When I tested the capabilities of the scripting engine, I coded a pretty simple script for ground attack aircrafts to fly into a target zone, pick individual targets inside that zone using a priority list (air defenses first, then armor, supplies, etc.). They also picked suitable weapons, engagement vectors and heights so that they don't just fly into the target zone and get shot down by the AD systems in the backfield or nearby manpads.

All this should also be possible for ground units with one minor difficulty: Ground units have just a single "brain". For planes and helicopters you can program the behavior of every group member individually. For ground units, this is not possible yet (probably to avoid overloading the CPU). However, we could code around this by introducing our own group system. For example, for a tank platoon, we would use 4 DCS groups with just a single tank and add them to an extra group in the lua script. Every command given to any of those tanks will be mirrored to the other platoon members. However, we would also need to add own movement scripts for formations because we couldn't use the DCS formations for obvious reasons, but that shouldn't be too hard. However, once that is done, it would come with the additional benefit that we would have "total control" over the formation and unit coordination.

Here is a small list of things that would be possible (or at least I have ideas how to realize it with the scripting engine):

- Firing zones for group members

- Tanks can take a "hull down" position if ordered

- Selecting different distances between group members inside of a formation

- "Smart reactions" to threats

- Control engagement distances (no more wasting ammo on targets that are too far away )

- Platoon/group internal engagement maneuvers

- coordinating IFVs to load/unload infantry as needed and to coordinate a combined advance and react to threats

- multiple groups can perform coordinated attacks (different attack angles, kill zones, etc.)

- smart artillery firing support

- calling and coordinating CAS

- some kind of automated mastermind for battlegroups

and many more. The DCS scripting engine is quite powerful and I already have a private GitHub repo where I started implementing some things I need to create interesting CA missions, but it is not much yet I am (had a longer DCS break and a lot of other coding stuff to do). So if some of you have a bit coding experiences, we might be able to realize some of the mentioned features. Just let me know and I would invite you to join the repository. If I have to do all the stuff myself, advances would take ages. Working with others is always more motivating

I am sure there are those here that have the experience your looking for to lend a hand, but unfortunately it isn't me otherwise I would have no hesitations.

Everything you mentioned though sounds like it would really help, but I wonder if the distance between vehicles isn't linked to way points and pathing? Would changing that introduce other issues with collisions/pathing?

Regardless of the reason behind any given problem, DCS World needs more capable ground units to make Combined Arms missions more believable/workable. I am sure efforts like yours are greatly appreciated by the community as a whole. 

[Wychmaster]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Callsign112:

Everything you mentioned though sounds like it would really help, but I wonder if the distance between vehicles isn't linked to way points and pathing? Would changing that introduce other issues with collisions/pathing?

Well, instead of having 1 group of 4 vehicles you would have 4 groups of 1 vehicle. To make them drive in a formation you would have to give them the same waypoint list but with a slight offset to each other. The offset is the desired distance between the vehicles. One could add a radio menu item to adjust the distance between the vehicles on the fly. Then you need to constantly check the distances between the vehicles and adjust their driving speed to catch up or wait for the others. Pathfinding is still done by the standard DCS engine just for each vehicle individually instead of the whole group. For sure this might lead to odd behavior in some situations but I think it would be still better than the current state. Especially because we gain fine control over other things like target priority and firing zones.

As I said, the scripting engine is quite powerful. A good example is the Skynet IADS script that let you setup a decent air defense network that isn't just a target range for Wild Weasels.

 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Callsign112:

Regardless of the reason behind any given problem, DCS World needs more capable ground units to make Combined Arms missions more believable/workable. I am sure efforts like yours are greatly appreciated by the community as a whole. 

Hope we will find someone else to help out. As mentioned before, If I do it all myself, I get distracted easily and everything will take ages.

CA is a great module if you know how to use it and ED keeps improving it silently. Not as fast as some of us wish, but I see the progress. Yes, there are dedicated tank/ground combat sims out there that are more realistic and might have better graphics, but there is one reason why I prefer CA: In DCS I can drive a tank while someone else provides CAS in an A-10 or AH-64. Can't have this in any other serious sim.

[Silver_Dragon]

Some updates:
- Add infantry transport capability to vehicles
- New Tow vehicles to a future add towed trailers.

 

[Apocalypse31]

On 1/31/2023 at 8:57 AM, Silver_Dragon said:

Some updates:
- Add infantry transport capability to vehicles
- New Tow vehicles to a future add towed trailers.

 

When you say 'updates'

 

Was this added or is this being added at some point in the near or distant future?

[Silver_Dragon]

35 minutes ago, Apocalypse31 said:

When you say 'updates'

 

Was this added or is this being added at some point in the near or distant future?

Has actually working on the last 2.8.2 path.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[Apocalypse31]

10 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Has actually working on the last 2.8.2 path.

 

Interesting.....

 

How? 

 

I just loaded beta and didn't see any options for a Stryker.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Apocalypse31

[NineLine]

27 minutes ago, Apocalypse31 said:

Interesting.....

 

How? 

 

I just loaded beta and didn't see any options for a Stryker.

 

Looks like they dont all have it, the ICV does, others dont appear to will ask about that. 

[Silver_Dragon]

44 minutes ago, Apocalypse31 said:

Interesting.....

 

How? 

 

I just loaded beta and didn't see any options for a Strker.

Actually work similar to a helo load / unload order. I no test them, to transport inself from CA vehicle view, but the AI load and unload troops as a helo. Actually, not all APC / IFV / No armored has simulated.

Actual Cargo capability example (Infantry).

• APC Fuchs (10).
• LAV-25 (6).
• M1043 HMMVW (4)
• M1126 Striker (9)
• M113 (11)
• M2A1 (7)
• M2A2 Bradley (6)
• M1025 HMMVW (4)
• Bedford Truck (10)
• Car Willys (3)
• CCKW Truck (13)
• M939 Truck (30)

Edited February 3, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[Apocalypse31]

4 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Actually work similar to a helo load / unload order. I no test them, to transport inself from CA vehicle view, but the AI load and unload troops as a helo. Actually, not all APC / IFV / No armored has simulated.

Actual Cargo capability example (Infantry).

• APC Fuchs (10).
• LAV-25 (6).
• M1043 HMMVW (4)
• M1126 Striker (9)
• M113 (11)
• M2A1 (7)
• M2A2 Bradley (6)
• M1025 HMMVW (4)
• Bedford Truck (10)
• Car Willys (3)
• CCKW Truck (13)
• M939 Truck (30)

 

This video is a year old and that method for loading infantry is very old.

 

I'm not sure what work was done? I just tested it in the mission editor and it still requires load and unload waypoints. So....not helpful, unfortunately. 

[Silver_Dragon]

7 hours ago, Apocalypse31 said:

This video is a year old and that method for loading infantry is very old.

 

I'm not sure what work was done? I just tested it in the mission editor and it still requires load and unload waypoints. So....not helpful, unfortunately. 

That is not a "copy paste" about helos. Need modified vehicles and core structure to accept carry capability.

[NineLine]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:25 PM, Apocalypse31 said:

This video is a year old and that method for loading infantry is very old.

 

I'm not sure what work was done? I just tested it in the mission editor and it still requires load and unload waypoints. So....not helpful, unfortunately. 

Not sure about unload waypoints, if you mean for AI to do so sure, but for CA you can unload where ever. 

The embark system is somewhat clunky at times, but its baby steps getting it where it needs to be, and I am always pushing to see improvements. 

[NineLine]

I set up three groups and as a driver of a transport was able to pick which group I wanted to pick up, then transport them where ever I wanted, I was also able to do this with each group and transports them to different locations.

Couple things I would still like to see is multiple pick ups and drop offs in one mission. So I pick them up, drop them off, they do their thing then I pick them up and take them somewhere else.

As well, I want to see it added so you can do all this as tactical commander, so you send the transport to a location, order the troops to embark, then move the transport on the F10 screen and order the troops out. All without having to be the driver. 

[Apocalypse31]

16 hours ago, NineLine said:

I set up three groups and as a driver of a transport was able to pick which group I wanted to pick up, then transport them where ever I wanted, I was also able to do this with each group and transports them to different locations.

Couple things I would still like to see is multiple pick ups and drop offs in one mission. So I pick them up, drop them off, they do their thing then I pick them up and take them somewhere else.

As well, I want to see it added so you can do all this as tactical commander, so you send the transport to a location, order the troops to embark, then move the transport on the F10 screen and order the troops out. All without having to be the driver. 

I'm not seeing the option to pick anyone up in the F10 menu.

I've tried with the Stryker, Bradley, and M113.

From the driver position, gunner, external, etc.

Am I doing this wrong?

 

The only way embarking soldiers works is by setting multiple embark waypoints in the editor // Infantry need the embark task and a follow-on waypoint with a disembark task. This has been 'the' way for a while. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Apocalypse31

[draconus]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:22 AM, NineLine said:

I set up three groups and as a driver of a transport was able to pick which group I wanted to pick up, then transport them where ever I wanted, I was also able to do this with each group and transports them to different locations.

Can you please show us the way? I also tried M939 and Bedford trucks and there were no radio commands or F10 map option to embark when I was near my infantry. There's also no key bind to do that.

[DD_Friar]

I am a bit late to the party but have been getting into DCS Combined Arms + World War Assets Pack with the intention of looking at all the stuff you have compared to Il2 Sturmovik and Tank Crew.

The attitude to development seems the same here as there. Both have produced a module with fantastic potential and just left it sitting on the shelf gathering dust.

The ground objects are way better here than in IL2 currently. There are so many more vehicles that can be driven. The outside models look really good as well.

I played a mission with a squad mate the other evening where I lazer marked a target for him to bomb from an F16. He did it blind from 20,000 and hit it bullseye. This opens up so many options.

Please give CA some love and who knows what audience it might attract.

[Rilence]

Yeah, CA or something like it has a lot of potential for future use, but it's just not the focus of the community or developers at the moment. I think it'll become more apparent as DCS is fleshed out and additions like the dynamic campaign are added.

[jackd]

On 3/29/2023 at 11:52 PM, Rilence said:

.... it has a lot of potential for future use, but it's just not the focus of the community or developers at the moment.

Pity, i just discovered it, it's great though sometimes weird even. My first 'mission', UPDATED:

WWII CA Willie in London v5.zip

PS Just saw some parked vehicles, above mission, but i only met Busses, Taxis and a Lorry or 2 ... these vehicles wont move?:

Edited May 18, 2023 by jackd

[Silver_Dragon]

Has part of map inself, many of them no have coded to be use as "traffic" or new vehicles. To use them need be coded with the SDK and build all Luas, animations etc, no the TDK. Same situation with some vehilces on NTTR and others maps.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Silver_Dragon

[orbiter28]

I edited a mission where a column of vehicles followed the route from point a to point b.
I then added a simple triger which added a lot of realism: below 50% group life, the units would go towards a waypoint C.
Thus, the units followed the road in a column to point B, when they were attacked they dispersed, stopped and fired (default behavior). In the event of major damage, they went to a retreat zone towards the forest.
All it takes is a few well-placed trigers to provide more intelligence.

One feature I would love is to have the crew automatically disembark and walk away if a unit is under 30% health, or a group is under 10%.

mort au peage.miz

Edited September 10, 2023 by orbiter28