Jammer Question

[twistking]

I'm sorry, that i post so many questions today, but i'm back in the viper after a longer pause and since the manual is not up to date you are my only hope

I'd need a quick overview over the jammer, since i know that some things changed since Matt Wagner's introductional jammer video. Maybe someone can link a short guide, or a post detailing the changes since the original video?!

Also i'd be interested in learning what mode turned out to be most effective specifically against SAMs and AI enemies in dcs. Barrage jamming or self protection jamming? Or does it depends on the circumstances?!

Thanks a lot!

[BigMac.no]

The one of Grim Reaper was informative:

 

 

[twistking]

thanks

[TEOMOOSE]

On 6/2/2022 at 12:22 PM, twistking said:

I'm sorry, that i post so many questions today, but i'm back in the viper after a longer pause and since the manual is not up to date you are my only hope

I'd need a quick overview over the jammer, since i know that some things changed since Matt Wagner's introductional jammer video. Maybe someone can link a short guide, or a post detailing the changes since the original video?!

Also i'd be interested in learning what mode turned out to be most effective specifically against SAMs and AI enemies in dcs. Barrage jamming or self protection jamming? Or does it depends on the circumstances?!

Thanks a lot!

try this too

 

[Glide]

Another question, while the topic is hot, with the old Lantirn pods you had to power up hardpoints 1 & 2 on the right panel.  I am guessing those switches are redundant now and the ALQ-184 is hard wired?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Glide

[ACME_WIdgets]

15 minutes ago, Glide said:

Another question, while the topic is hot, with the old Lantirn pods you had to power up hardpoints 1 & 2 on the right panel.  I am guessing those switches are redundant now and the ALQ-184 is hard wired?

 

Correct.

[Tholozor]

2 hours ago, Glide said:

Another question, while the topic is hot, with the old Lantirn pods you had to power up hardpoints 1 & 2 on the right panel.  I am guessing those switches are redundant now and the ALQ-184 is hard wired?

Not exactly "redundant," the hardpoint switches are still required for any equipment loaded on those hardpoints (HTS or TGP on 5L and 5R). ECM should be powered from the dedicated ECM panel on the left console.

[SickSidewinder9]

Is there any onboard self protection jamming?  I thought the F-16 had that (maybe it depends on the block/build/upgrade).

I also find it curious that the switches are defaulted to 1st cell being selected always (hints at onboard to me) and default mode being XMIT barrage mode.

[Chain_1]

2 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Is there any onboard self protection jamming?  I thought the F-16 had that (maybe it depends on the block/build/upgrade).

I also find it curious that the switches are defaulted to 1st cell being selected always (hints at onboard to me) and default mode being XMIT barrage mode.

For ours, at least, you need an external ecm pod.  I also find it odd that the switches are defaulted that way, especially when no pod is loaded.

[Bunny Clark]

9 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Is there any onboard self protection jamming?  I thought the F-16 had that (maybe it depends on the block/build/upgrade).

Nope. Some of the export versions of the F-16 have a built-in jammer, but none of the USAF Vipers do. 

[SickSidewinder9]

Aha, ok.

[Ramstein]

should have been left to pilots discretion, as it was probably so that HOJ could not be used against the Viper. When they decided against it, the pilots must have had a good reason why they didn't go with built in ECM.

[Ignition]

Shouldn't an external pod of that size be better in some way than a smaller internal one? I don't know maybe is stronger, faster or can work with a bigger band of frequencies?

[Northstar98]

On 9/30/2022 at 10:49 PM, Ramstein said:

should have been left to pilots discretion, as it was probably so that HOJ could not be used against the Viper. When they decided against it, the pilots must have had a good reason why they didn't go with built in ECM.

Internal ECM systems on fighters are usually under the DECM umbrella, commonly aimed at track-breaking - they don't really suffer from HOJ because they only transmit when a radar in a track/fire-control mode is detected.

[Varry007]

in which case should we choose a specific jamming pod (ALQ-184 short, ALQ-184 long, ALQ-131)?

[skywalker22]

1 minute ago, Varry007 said:

in which case should we choose a specific jamming pod (ALQ-184 short, ALQ-184 long, ALQ-131)?

There is no diffference among them what so ever. 

So it doesn't matter which one you pick.

But there is also some other fact, in DCS ECM is not working as it should (as it does IRL). So against real players there is practically no point in using it. It does some work to some degree against AI, but none to humans.

[Exorcet]

11 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

There is no diffference among them what so ever. 

ECM wise yes, but weight and drag differs. The 184 Short is the best pod.

11 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

So it doesn't matter which one you pick.

But there is also some other fact, in DCS ECM is not working as it should (as it does IRL). So against real players there is practically no point in using it. It does some work to some degree against AI, but none to humans.

ECM vs players has always had some value. You just don't want to leave it on indefinitely.

[skywalker22]

4 hours ago, Exorcet said:

ECM vs players has always had some value. You just don't want to leave it on indefinitely.

What current state of ECM system does in DCS, is that exposes you to others even more and when you are in the range of fox1 or fox3 missiles, other radars burns through anyway,... so go figure why is use of it any good. I don't see any, sorry.

And btw, there is only 1 type of jamming in DCS atm, and this is noice. Which btw, no one uses it anymore IRL. Whats even more, (some) modern rockets are made that way, that can passively be guided by this noice towards the souce (target on the end).

So you see where we are with ecm in dcs. Its really a shame after so many years, ED still did't do a thing regarding it... 

 

[Raptor9]

38 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

And btw, there is only 1 type of jamming in DCS atm, and this is noice. Which btw, no one uses it anymore IRL. Whats even more, (some) modern rockets are made that way, that can passively be guided by this noice towards the souce (target on the end).

This is not true. There is currently both noise and deception jamming present in the F-16 ECM pods. Choosing how and when you use such modes are predicated on the threats you are facing, the mission, and the flight profile at any given moment.

Jammers are a tool that should be used when appropriate, and avoided when it is not. As such, the ECM pods are more effective against ground-based air defenses, and which mode you use and when you employ it will have varied results on what threat you are facing.

I personally leave the jammer off when facing air-to-air threats. Because even in Radar priority mode, it still degrades the effectiveness of the FCR. I would much rather have full FCR effectiveness and get the opponent on the defensive as soon as possible with a long-range BVR shot.

Indeed, leaving the jammer broadcasting continuously in noise jamming mode without a regard to the immediate tactical environment will highlight your position. As with most things, strategy is important.

[falcon_120]

There is one positive thing of turning on your noise jammer, it will deny lofting to Fox 3 (sd10 and Amraam at least) hugely reducing the range even at altitude.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[skywalker22]

21 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

This is not true. There is currently both noise and deception jamming present in the F-16 ECM pods...

Are u positive there is deception jamming in F-16? Never heard of that, sorry. Do you have any source?

[Raptor9]

1 minute ago, skywalker22 said:

Are u positive there is deception jamming in F-16? Never heard of that, sorry. Do you have any source?

Wags demonstrates it in this video. The manual is being updated to reflect it as well.

I've also personally tested it myself.

[skywalker22]

14 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Wags demonstrates it in this video. The manual is being updated to reflect it as well.

I've also personally tested it myself.

Sorry, but I didn't hear not a single word about deception jamming in that video (which I seen few times in the past). So still no proof about your words that exists, sorry.

[Raptor9]

Ok. 

[Exorcet]

4 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

What current state of ECM system does in DCS, is that exposes you to others even more and when you are in the range of fox1 or fox3 missiles, other radars burns through anyway,... so go figure why is use of it any good. I don't see any, sorry.

Being seen can be a good thing. Even back in the days when all there was online was FC3 I'd use ECM to cover friendlies. I'd turn it on when I was leaving the battlefield. Unsurprisingly I'd get lock warnings on the RWR occasionally despite being 100's of miles from the front lines. I can't be sure if that actually helped anyone in combat, but it may have.

4 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

And btw, there is only 1 type of jamming in DCS atm, and this is noice. Which btw, no one uses it anymore IRL. Whats even more, (some) modern rockets are made that way, that can passively be guided by this noice towards the souce (target on the end).

Noise jamming still denies range information, so it can be useful. It prevents TWS lofting of active missiles, which lowers their range.

Also, it's not the only jamming in DCS. The F-16 specifically has mode 1/2 deception jamming to break lock. You can even see it in the video TEOMOOSE posted.

4 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

So you see where we are with ecm in dcs. Its really a shame after so many years, ED still did't do a thing regarding it... 

 

ECM is better now than it has ever been. It still might not be perfect but I think it's actually in a usable state, barring ECM immune planes like the F-14.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Exorcet