how to perform an aerodynamic breaking with the F1 ?

[cmbaviator]

Hell guys,

 

I was wondering how to perform an aerodynalic breaking with the F1 because as soon as the main wheel touches down, the nose to th F1 severly goes down ?

 

thanks

[Lace]

I imagine you don't.  You want to get all three wheels down sharpish so you can start slowing with the braking 'chute.

 

Of course, if your SOP says no 'chute, then aerobraking will make more sense.

[SlipHavoc]

Page 108 of the manual says:

After touchdown: i ̴ 13°. It is advantageous to use aerodynamic braking by holding the nose
high down to 120 kts.

I haven't landed it all that many times yet, but I haven't had much trouble holding the nose high after touchdown, although it does seem to want to touch the nose gear initially.  I've found that retracting the flaps keeps it from wanting to take off again, but that may just mean I'm landing too fast.  I do agree that the drag chute is the way to go though, the brakes aren't terrible but they're not great either, and even with aerobraking it can be a long runout on landing.  But the drag chute works great.

[cmbaviator]

21 minutes ago, SlipHavoc said:

Page 108 of the manual says:

After touchdown: i ̴ 13°. It is advantageous to use aerodynamic braking by holding the nose
high down to 120 kts.

I haven't landed it all that many times yet, but I haven't had much trouble holding the nose high after touchdown, although it does seem to want to touch the nose gear initially.  I've found that retracting the flaps keeps it from wanting to take off again, but that may just mean I'm landing too fast.  I do agree that the drag chute is the way to go though, the brakes aren't terrible but they're not great either, and even with aerobraking it can be a long runout on landing.  But the drag chute works great.

yes you can do aero braking but i can't do it without the nosewheel touching the ground first

[agamemnon_b5]

Aero braking in a Mirage F1

 

 

 

[cmbaviator]

10 hours ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Aero braking in a Mirage F1

 

 

Thats currently impossible in DCS as the nose wheel smashed the ground big time suddendly after touch down

 

[agamemnon_b5]

9 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

 

 

Not impossible.  I did it once.  Granted it was by accident and I haven't been able to do it again since, but I did do an aerobraking maneuver.  

I believe I was going in around 130kts.

Edited July 29, 2022 by agamemnon_b5

[RhineHornet]

It works! I just did it last night, nose gear did not go down on touch down, kept the nose up until about 110 knots. Love this jet...

[MAXsenna]

29 minutes ago, RhineHornet said:

It works! I just did it last night, nose gear did not go down on touch down, kept the nose up until about 110 knots. Love this jet...

Cool!  I'm in for a lot of "touch and go" today it seems then.  

[jaguara5]

The key to prevent the nose to come down and perform a correct aerodynamic braking is to be in the correct position at touchdown. According to  the pattern diagram  at short final you keep rpm above 7000 / i 10 deg  speed / ~ 150 kts (typical landing weight 8700kg / 1000lt fuel remaining). Just before the touchdown you flare the ac by bringing the nose up so that you have the  I  at 13 degr and after the main gear comes on the runway you throttle  back to idle. This stick  aft input raises the nose so that the runway in front of you is almost not visible ( you have to raise also the seat and lean forward for better visibility). As a result  the ac is already in a perfect position to perform the aero braking , slight  aft input  on the stick is then required to maintain that position. If you don' t raise the nose sufficient  just before the touchdown or if  you  are   to slow the nose landing gear will come  come down quickly. 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by jaguara5

[jojyrocks]

It can be done, you need to be in the AOA between green and yellow, or even just yellow and modulate the stick...Yellow has more chance of getting a good hold to aerobrake.

 

Airshow vid - 

 

 

Timestamp - 4:25

[Nealius]

On 7/22/2022 at 9:57 PM, cmbaviator said:

I was wondering how to perform an aerodynalic breaking with the F1 because as soon as the main wheel touches down, the nose to th F1 severly goes down ?

This is something I've noticed to some degree or another in every DCS module, ED or 3rd party, perhaps excluding the F-15C and F-16C, though the latter still wants to drop a bit on touchdown. It just takes practice to catch the nose and modulate the stick to keep it there without overrotating.

[Exorcet]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

This is something I've noticed to some degree or another in every DCS module, ED or 3rd party, perhaps excluding the F-15C and F-16C, though the latter still wants to drop a bit on touchdown. It just takes practice to catch the nose and modulate the stick to keep it there without overrotating.

Every plane with tricycle gear has the CG fore of the main gear. If you land hard enough a moment will push the nose down. It's all about landing gently, though that doesn't mean that the suspension model might be off on some modules.

[Nealius]

10 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It's all about landing gently, though that doesn't mean that the suspension model might be off on some modules.

Or the rubber/pavement physics model. I remember a lot of debate regarding the warbirds on that, and certain modules seem heavier or lighter than they reportedly should be in terms of required thrust for taxi, etc. 

[jojyrocks]

6 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Every plane with tricycle gear has the CG fore of the main gear. If you land hard enough a moment will push the nose down. It's all about landing gently, though that doesn't mean that the suspension model might be off on some modules.

 

So far, when it comes to Difficulty on aerobraking for DCS planes:

This plane is doable, when you get it to angle on Yellow on AoA, easier to hold the aerobrake nose up. It is easier when lightly loaded. If loaded, can be bit hard. 

 

The impossible model in DCS is F-18, unless you put flaps to half, you just cannot aerobrake (I've seen Finnish pilots do it). The second most hardest is Mig 21 and 3rd, the Tomcat.

[Baltic Pirate]

Seems to work fine. However the combination of aerodynamic braking and drag chute is a tid bit harder as the nose comes down with the deployment.

[Lurker]

7 hours ago, Exorcet said:

Every plane with tricycle gear has the CG fore of the main gear. If you land hard enough a moment will push the nose down. It's all about landing gently, though that doesn't mean that the suspension model might be off on some modules.

This. It's simple physics. I've never had trouble with landing tricycle planes in any sim, and DCS is no different. If you are having problems landing planes in DCS World, 99% it's on the pilot and not the flight model. 

[Hiob]

On 7/29/2022 at 1:25 PM, cmbaviator said:

 

The "secret" is the vertical speed. It's as Lurker said - simple physics. When you slam the center of gravity into the ground, its inertia will rotate the jet around the MLG and slam the nose wheel into the ground. I'm not saying that it is easy - certainly not for me.

[cmbaviator]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

This. It's simple physics. I've never had trouble with landing tricycle planes in any sim, and DCS is no different. If you are having problems landing planes in DCS World, 99% it's on the pilot and not the flight model. 

The issue is not landing correctly but maintaining the AoA on touch down, on the mirage F1 or F18, as soon as you down down and even with a kiss lànding, the nose wheel steering slams the runway big time

[Giskvoosk]

Have been shamefully slamming on touchdown since day 1, here's my first attempt in a more gentle manner. There's a dip but feels totally manageable.

https://imgur.com/HJOPYdD

 

 

IRL aerobraking from hud cam view:

 

[Hiob]

q.e.d.

[Hiob]

17 hours ago, cmbaviator said:

The issue is not landing correctly but maintaining the AoA on touch down, on the mirage F1 or F18, as soon as you down down and even with a kiss lànding, the nose wheel steering slams the runway big time

That's the beauty of scientific theories. They are falsifiable. You only need one counter proof to negate them.

[Baltic Pirate]

Here's a screenshot from F1 manual. 

[cmbaviator]

6 hours ago, Giskvoosk said:

Have been shamefully slamming on touchdown since day 1, here's my first attempt in a more gentle manner. There's a dip but feels totally manageable.

https://imgur.com/HJOPYdD

 

 

IRL aerobraking from hud cam view:

 

 

thats what i was expecting from the F1 module. its currently not the case. besides;, whuch varian tis that ? the HUD symbology is more modern compared to what Aerges has modelled

[Giskvoosk]

21 minutes ago, cmbaviator said:

 

thats what i was expecting from the F1 module. its currently not the case. besides;, whuch varian tis that ? the HUD symbology is more modern compared to what Aerges has modelled

French speaking pilot + colored hud tape, I guess its an F1CT, or CR, in french service.

 

And its doable for sure i did one in the first run, check the imgur link above. The key point as others have already suggested is to control your vertical speed before touchdown.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Giskvoosk