Make a JA37 HB please

[Spirale]

As the Cold War area (and servers) becomes more and more popular and frequented by more and more pilots, i think it would be beneficial for all of us to have a JA37: a real pleasure for the pilots to have and use such an iconic and terrific fighter and beneficial for HB because i am convainced that sales would explode ^^

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Spirale

[Fromthedeep]

Still classified, not going to happen for a long time.

[Spirale]

Mirage 2000 is still classified in some aeras as the F16, F18, AH64 Apache and incoming Typhoon and yet we have them

[Fromthedeep]

39 minutes ago, Spirale said:

Mirage 2000 is still classified in some aeras as the F16, F18, AH64 Apache and incoming Typhoon and yet we have them

And many of those are a husk of what they should be with a tiny fraction of their real life capability and system logic. But just because certain regulations apply to US aircraft you can't assume the same will be true for Swedish ones. People have talked about in the past that the datalink in the JA-37 serves the basis for the indigenous datalink of the Gripen as well. 

[TLTeo]

Yeah it's been debated to death. The documents necessary to make the JA also include lots of information on the datalink that applies to the Gripen, and therefore they are not available for the public (even though the details of the datalink itself don't matter because DCS models those quite simply).

[Spirale]

I understand this BUT datalinks are all classified . I don't think ED F16 ( for example) datalink is well modeled too.

The JA37 is not only a datalink but radar system, weapons systems, FM etc etc...So, for me, it is possible to make this beauty even if the "holy" datalink does'nt match the IRL one.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Spirale

[Noctrach]

On 7/23/2022 at 8:20 PM, Spirale said:

I understand this BUT datalinks are all classified . I don't think ED F16 ( for example) datalink is well modeled too.

The JA37 is not only a datalink but radar system, weapons systems, FM etc etc...So, for me, it is possible to make this beauty even if the "holy" datalink does'nt match the IRL one.

 

You misunderstand, we're not talking about the datalink implementation. The documents containing the details for radar, weapons, FM etc. also happen to contain sensitive DL information and are therefore restricted from the public.

So there is no data available on those other system as chances are painfully small that any government would have someone go comb the entire set of docs to strip out every bit of sensitive info just so we can get the rest of it modeled in a videogame ^^

Edited July 25, 2022 by Noctrach

[bies]

Right now i'm wondering if Cold War 1980s JA-37 with Skyflash is classified or maybe HB tried to obtain 1990s post Cold War variant with modernised avionics and only this one was classified? For me 1980s JA-37 with Skyflash would be the best anyway - this would be the one for Enigma server and Cold War SP scenarios.

Edited July 30, 2022 by bies

[TOViper]

On 7/25/2022 at 2:12 AM, Noctrach said:

... someone go comb the entire set of docs to strip out every bit of sensitive info ...

 

So for the F-16C Bl 52 someone has already done this?
Following your statements, it makes me think we have the DCS F-16 Viper module ("radar system, weapons systems, FM etc") because of that, don't we?

 

[Noctrach]

7 hours ago, TOViper said:

So for the F-16C Bl 52 someone has already done this?
Following your statements, it makes me think we have the DCS F-16 Viper module ("radar system, weapons systems, FM etc") because of that, don't we?

 

My point is that some governments choose to declassify their docs after some time by combing out all the classified bits and some docs just end up in the wild for miscellaneous reasons. In the latter case, a government isn't going to put in the effort for proper declassification because we want it modeled in a videogame.

Would seem to me like there's two possible options for developers with regards to aircraft documentation in the public domain:

1. It has been sufficiently declassified, so yes, it has been combed like that, go nuts.
2. It has not been declassified and is possibly not worth risking criminal charges over.

Bear in mind that a huge component in modeling these airplanes is SME input. Even if you have the docs, if they're not declassified or if you having access to them raises some eyebrows, nobody is going to want to talk to you.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Noctrach

[Gorn_GER]

I Have the AJS37 and would pay atleast extra 20€ to get the JA37. I saw people here explaining that classifications in documents would be the problem. I understand that but for me it would be fair enough if it would come in a slimmed version of the original. Just let the best looking plane in DCS be a reasonable fighter. Even an integrated gun would change a world. 

[WinterH]

Early on they had an idea of perhaps making an FC3 JA37 as a sort of bonus, but even that had to fall by the wayside.

A full Jakt Viggen module would be quite an effort, and seeing that HB has it's plate full for a good bit of time with finishing touches on Viggen, Tomcat, as well as development of F-4Es, Eurofighter, A-6, naval Phantoms, I'd rather prefer their next Swedish aircraft to be a Draken to represent its uniqueness as much as I love the Viggen.

What I'd love a JA37 for would be not having to baby the engine at high AoA turns. So I can't say I would really need a JA37Di with AMRAAMs myself, would be fine with an earlier JA37 variant. But again, I'd rather prefer them make a Draken when they look into Sweden again.

[isglas]

I want an JA 37 so bad!!!!

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

(cross-post) I read else where, and if my understanding was correct, even the Eurofight Typhoon under development does not have full 100% functionality cause parts of this plane are still classified. So I don't mind having a JA-37 sans datalink. Just let me BFM in this baby, please.

[MK IX Hawk]

+1 for a JA37. 

Listening to the interview from Enigma - "Cold War Module Maker Interview: Magnitude 3" on YouTube, it's interesting to hear about the different sources of documentation, often from institutional archives, though sometimes from freedom of information applications (FoI). Not sure if a FoI application would be relevant to the JA37 flight documentation, and if that would lead to non-classified aspects of documentation being able to be obtained. 

From a FoI application stand point I would assume it doesn't matter if it's "for a video game" or general interest etc, an application is an application. 

A comment was made above about a " Cold War 1980s JA-37 with Skyflash " pre- more modern upgrades, perhaps there is more information readily available in the public domain for this. There's also the benefit that the Eurofighter is getting having people on the development team who flew and were instructors for the airplane for many years, ideally having someone to consult who actually flew a JA37 would be very useful for the flight mechanics, 

Whatever the case, it would be great to see a fighter version of the Viggen for the Cold War server / era. 

 

 

[renhanxue]

22 hours ago, MK IX Hawk said:

+1 for a JA37. 

Listening to the interview from Enigma - "Cold War Module Maker Interview: Magnitude 3" on YouTube, it's interesting to hear about the different sources of documentation, often from institutional archives, though sometimes from freedom of information applications (FoI). Not sure if a FoI application would be relevant to the JA37 flight documentation, and if that would lead to non-classified aspects of documentation being able to be obtained. 

From a FoI application stand point I would assume it doesn't matter if it's "for a video game" or general interest etc, an application is an application. 

I wrote a bit about the Swedish equivalent of Freedom of Information requests here:

 

Regarding "for a video game": freedom of information requests in Sweden ("begäran att få ta del av allmän handling") have a fair bit of constitutional protection, and in principle the authorities are constitutionally prohibited from trying to determine both who is asking for the information and the purpose of the request. The exception is when it comes to declassification, though - in order to determine if the information can be released, the authorities may have cause to ask you what you intend to do with it, because there is the possibility to release it with usage restrictions. This is essentially never relevant for military secrets, though.

[Fromthedeep]

On 8/16/2022 at 3:36 PM, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

So I don't mind having a JA-37 sans datalink

DCS is already full of aircraft that have plenty of missing systems and capabilities due to the sensitive nature of the information. Why would anyone want to actively make the situation worse by demanding yet another aircraft that cannot be recreated properly? And it's a big assumption that HB can acquire any of the documents.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I dunno if "full of" means every single one of the modules. I leave this judgement to the more educated.

Even if it is really the case, I don't see why not add another. JA-37 is a different plane from AJS-37 and I love the latter so I want to try out the former. If you want everything complete, I respect that and I don't anything wrong for want something, different.

[Skyracer]

I don't understand what a are so secretive about this plane. We know its an A2A fighter.

7G

Armament;

Rockets

Sparrows

Amraam

Sidwinder

And it had fighter to fighter datalink.  

[Machalot]

On 2/14/2023 at 5:18 AM, Skyracer said:

I don't understand what a are so secretive about this plane. We know its an A2A fighter.

7G

Armament;

Rockets

Sparrows

Amraam

Sidwinder

And it had fighter to fighter datalink.  

You can't make an accurate model based on qualitative descriptions. 

The kind of documents and data that is classified or otherwise held from the public is also, not coincidentally, the kind of data you need to make an accurate model.  

You, the general public, not knowing what's classified about a program might just be by design  

[Bananabrai]

How about an AJSH upgrade with RECCE pods instead?

[Saab87]

The main problem is that the Viggen's weapons and communication systems are shared with the Gripen.  Since the Gripen is classified, there will be no JA variant any time soon.  At least the D version.

[WinterH]

To be honest, I'd prefer a JA37C if we ever get one. Yeah, it doesn't sling AMRAAMs, but... so what? It'd fit in a lot better with existing and upcoming 70s to early 80s "3rd gen" fighters like F-5E, MiG-21Bis, MiG-23MLA, Mirage F1, F-4E, etc. It may not share as much with Gripen. Although I think it still used still classified datalink with GCI, it may be implemented in a simplified way, or, as in case of many existing modules with similar systems, completely omitted. We'd still get "funky delta canard with lots of power, but don't mind pulling some AoA now!"

Allegedly AJ Viggen has a theoretically better peak turn performance, for a very short while. However, Jakt Viggen has a more powerful engine that also doesn't start coughing up compressor stalls at highish AoA left and right. Besides... who wouldn't want that Oerlikon KCA with "automatic gun targeting" feature of Jakt Viggens?  That thing uses the monstrous 30x173mm rounds like GAU-8 after all!

But I don't know if HB (or any other dev) would undertake such a project now. HB has their work cut out for foreseeable future too: between finishing F-14 and Viggen, releasing and developing F-4E, Eurofighter Typhoon, later Navy F-4s, and A-6. And while I'd really love a JA 37, I'd honestly much prefer HB to give us a Draken first. I really want a Draken in DCS. Just look at the thing, oozes character, and was pulling Cobras before Flanker was a thing! It'd also go well with MiG-21, F-5E, MiG-19, F-8J, etc.

[FlankerKiller]

On 2/19/2023 at 2:12 PM, WinterH said:

To be honest, I'd prefer a JA37C if we ever get one. Yeah, it doesn't sling AMRAAMs, but... so what? It'd fit in a lot better with existing and upcoming 70s to early 80s "3rd gen" fighters like F-5E, MiG-21Bis, MiG-23MLA, Mirage F1, F-4E, etc. It may not share as much with Gripen. Although I think it still used still classified datalink with GCI, it may be implemented in a simplified way, or, as in case of many existing modules with similar systems, completely omitted. We'd still get "funky delta canard with lots of power, but don't mind pulling some AoA now!"

Allegedly AJ Viggen has a theoretically better peak turn performance, for a very short while. However, Jakt Viggen has a more powerful engine that also doesn't start coughing up compressor stalls at highish AoA left and right. Besides... who wouldn't want that Oerlikon KCA with "automatic gun targeting" feature of Jakt Viggens?  That thing uses the monstrous 30x173mm rounds like GAU-8 after all!

But I don't know if HB (or any other dev) would undertake such a project now. HB has their work cut out for foreseeable future too: between finishing F-14 and Viggen, releasing and developing F-4E, Eurofighter Typhoon, later Navy F-4s, and A-6. And while I'd really love a JA 37, I'd honestly much prefer HB to give us a Draken first. I really want a Draken in DCS. Just look at the thing, oozes character, and was pulling Cobras before Flanker was a thing! It'd also go well with MiG-21, F-5E, MiG-19, F-8J, etc.

Following this it's hard to say if it could even be done, which is sad and frustrating. I know at the time DCS was in a place where developers were just doing what they could. I know the the AJS37 broke new ground with its air to ground radar. Buy it would have been nice if Heatblur would have factored in rather or not they could also to a cold War fighter variant. The pair, especially if the fighter carried Fox1s would have represented the complete tactcal mission set for the Swedish air force at the time. Which means that a pair of complementary aircraft could be shoved into almost and situation we can imagine as something other than just a Russia/Soviet vs America fight. It's sad that this seems to be extremely improbable at this time. 

[kseremak]

For me original Swedish cold war JA37 Viggen as well. I don't care about classified modern D with modern avionics and weapons. In '80s enviroment it would be dangerous fighter, in '00 it would be outmatched and outdated.

Edited April 1, 2023 by kseremak