reported Changes to scripts fail integrity check again.

[Se1ko]

3 hours ago, Maverick87Shaka said:

EDIT:
I'm also a server admin, and even if it's just a PvE since we have public statistics, its fair to leave integrity check on. But I can understand how wants to enjoy their own simpit.

 

An ED Partner too I see.

Interesting....

[MadKreator]

I cant agree with you more @Se1ko. 100%bs for us who just export displays. There has to be a better way. Problems with people modding weapons? Cant those types of files be hidden/ encrypted so users don’t have access to them in the first place? Same goes with flight dynamics or anything that could be relevant to a cheat?.. or better yet revamp the ic system to allow servers more flexibility or to be able to exclude monitor configs and viewport exports etc. There seriously has to be a better way than to just say, nope its the base vanilla game or nothing. DCS has lots of bugs and quirks that I’ve learned to laugh off but this is one thing that is infuriating to me. Fix the root problem instead of just punishing the masses. I don’t even play MP that much, its the principle of it all. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by MadKreator

[Maverick87Shaka]

6 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

I cant agree with you more @Se1ko. 100%bs for us who just export displays. There has to be a better way than to just punish everyone. Problems with people modding weapons? Cant those types of files be hidden/ encrypted so users don’t have access to them in the first place? Same goes with flight dynamics or anything that could be relevant to a cheat?.. or better yet revamp the ic system to allow servers more flexibility or to be able to exclude monitor configs and viewport exports. There seriously has to be a better way than to just say, nope its the base vanilla game or nothing. DCS has lots of bugs and quirks that I’ve learned to laugh off but this is one thing that is infuriating to me. Fix the root problem instead of just punishing the masses.

Workload on server admins are already relative high, manage .miz file, scripts, and server itself are really time consuming activity, on top of that they usually pay the bill for hardware or hosting their server and make them available to the community for free.
Add more work to server admins to make a granular blacklist or whitelist of what file can be modified is not a good idea TBH, not at all!
Also for final user experience that they don't even know what to expect on joining servers, since configuration can be slightly different in this hypothetical scenario, it's not good.
You can end to have a gauge that work on a specific server, but not in other, but in that other works some display and not the gauge. It doesn't sound a good idea.

To me what could be a great approach ( it will require times of course ) it's make all the gauge and display "public" and with their unique ID ( including front/rear seat I.e. of AH-64D ) so people can customize their multi monitor setup from saved games folder instead edit core games file.

To be clear, it's not a quick solution, it will require times, edit to  all the current modules, every 3rd parties should also comply with this standard, but it's the only way to guarantee that no core games file are tamped, leaving the ability to people to customize their MultiMonitor export in details, and not just MFD screen and few options that we've today.
 

[MadKreator]

4 hours ago, Maverick87Shaka said:

Workload on server admins are already relative high, manage .miz file, scripts, and server itself are really time consuming activity, on top of that they usually pay the bill for hardware or hosting their server and make them available to the community for free.
Add more work to server admins to make a granular blacklist or whitelist of what file can be modified is not a good idea TBH, not at all!
Also for final user experience that they don't even know what to expect on joining servers, since configuration can be slightly different in this hypothetical scenario, it's not good.
You can end to have a gauge that work on a specific server, but not in other, but in that other works some display and not the gauge. It doesn't sound a good idea.

To me what could be a great approach ( it will require times of course ) it's make all the gauge and display "public" and with their unique ID ( including front/rear seat I.e. of AH-64D ) so people can customize their multi monitor setup from saved games folder instead edit core games file.

To be clear, it's not a quick solution, it will require times, edit to  all the current modules, every 3rd parties should also comply with this standard, but it's the only way to guarantee that no core games file are tamped, leaving the ability to people to customize their MultiMonitor export in details, and not just MFD screen and few options that we've today.
 

Thank you for that insight. I do not know anything about running a public server, or private for that matter. My intent was not to recommend more workload necessarily. I don’t think the server admins should have to nitpick through every individual type of file by any means.

Now I do like that thought of monitor exports and things being applied through saved games!  I think you’re really on to something there! Thats a much better thought and solution than end users, like myself, just whining about it

Don’t get me wrong I 100% agree with limiting cheating in every way possible. But throwing a blanket over the issue isn’t the right end-game in my opinion. I hope its just a start to something more in-depth that is being thought out more carefully.

I do hope ED will take great consideration and empathize with us “exporters”/ sim pit builders etc and really work on a more practical solution for the long term, such as you have suggested. 

It’s hard for me to believe that there isn’t more than one person at ED that plays the game with helios, exports, multi monitor setup beyond the couple options in game or that uses a widescreen (that basically has to modify some core cockpit files to even make some modules playable), that all thought an option to block the game to vanilla was a great idea. Exporting from dcs has been around a long time. It’s very generous that ED does allow us to do things like that and supports the mod community the way it does. But one would think there has to be a better solution out there to not alienate the possible thousands of users that don’t want to cheat but want and crave the more immersive experience of a home cockpit or Helios, for example.

Still bearing in mind that I don’t play MP a whole lot, but I still sympathize and advocate with all of the users than do, and some that play dcs exclusively in MP. 

[c0ff]

Just FYI, we are following this thread.

Indeed, we need be a better solution to "mods vs cheats problem", not like the current all-or-nothing one.

[SlipHavoc]

Adding my voice to this as well...  I have made a number of optimized autostart scripts (F-18, Ka-50, AH-64, C-101, Mi-8, UH-1, and Mi-24, all available in the User Files, and I have several more that I haven't published yet).  I understand that the Cockpit/Scripts folder was added to the IC check in v.2.8.0.32066 in order to prevent some kind of MP cheating exploit, but there are no exploits in these customized startup scripts, they just use the exact same method that the default scripts use to press buttons in the cockpit in a specific order during the start sequence.

I ask that you please prioritize making it possible to customize the startup scripts again without breaking IC, whether by allowing macro_sequencies.lua specifically (which is the only file that needs to be changed for these startup scripts), or by somehow limiting what can be called from that file so that the exploit can be prevented while still allowing custom startup scripts.

Thank you!

[KillerCharlie]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:12 AM, c0ff said:

Just FYI, we are following this thread.

Indeed, we need be a better solution to "mods vs cheats problem", not like the current all-or-nothing one.

I appreciate this is being looked into.

I registered for this forum to voice my concern as well. I just put together a  nice touchscreen arrangement with Thrustmaster Cougar MFD buttons. Now I can't export the viewports just because Helios adds 2 lines of code to the end of the .lua files. Couldn't the files be checked for their content (at least the cockpit scripts) instead of a blanket checksum? There's very little modification actually occuring by Helios. 

People are spending hundreds and thousands of dollars to build home cockpits where they export the viewports, usually using Helios. Not being able to use those viewports means all of these dedicated customers can't play online without reconfiguring all the files every time they switch. It's a hassle that's already turning people away from the game.

Just go on the reddit hoggit forum and look at all the Helios-based simpits people are putting together.... they are not going to be happy when they can't play on most servers after all that money and work.

Edited December 22, 2022 by KillerCharlie

[rurounijones]

On 12/20/2022 at 8:12 AM, c0ff said:

Just FYI, we are following this thread.

Indeed, we need be a better solution to "mods vs cheats problem", not like the current all-or-nothing one.

We do not need a perfect solution; there are a few "Good enough" things that can be done quickly and easily which will benefit thousands of players.

DICE for countermeasures

DICE provides countermeasure programming and has been downloaded over 5,000 times. It is providing a valuable service to players.

ED obviously have the ability to whitelist these particular files and exclude them from IC but they do not wish to do so. So lets look at another easy alternative. Instead of having the values inside the .lua files themselves lets put them somewhere else and then read from that somewhere else in the lua files. For extra security and anti-cheat lets make that somewhere else a data file instead of a source-code file.

In the C:\Users\$user\Saved Games\DCS.openbeta path ED can create a folder called "Countermeasures" and then inside can add a JSON file called "F-18.json" (These locations and filrenames are obviously just examples)  with the following format which is just a JSON representation of the existing lua table:

{
  "MAN_1" : {
    "chaff": 1,
    "flare": 1,
    "intv":  1.0,
    "cycle": 10    
  },
  "MAN_2" : {
    "chaff": 1,
    "flare": 1,
    "intv":  0.5,
    "cycle": 10    
  }
}

ED then modifies the lua file to instead read the program values from the JSON file and then DICE, or other programs. or just people not afraid of JSON, can modify the JSON file values without breaking IC. There are obviously some other considerations to take into account such as JSON error handling, default values and the like etc. but a competent developer should be able to make and test this change in an afternoon per aircraft (since different aircraft will require different JSON structures).

This is something that can be done now  as an intermediate solution while we wait for a full-fledged DTC.

Helios for instrument exports

Helios literally has a list of patches that they apply to ED files to enable cockpit instrument exports that are currently missing.

https://github.com/HeliosVirtualCockpit/Helios/tree/1.6.5600.0/Patching/Patches/DCS/002_008_00000_33006_00000/Viewports/Mods/aircraft

ED can look at those, validate that they are safe, and then upstream them into DCS itself so that Helios no longer needs to do any patching. Most of them are literaly one-liners. ED can then invite the Helios devs to the Beta Test team so that they can validate changes work with Helios and contribute fixes before new versions go to open beta.

Helios has also been downloaded thousands of times. With a minimal amount of work, ED has now catered to those users. These patches will also fix IC for people who just want to export displays by manually by providing the screens that they can reference in their moitor lua setups.

VIACOM for voice commands

Viacom has also been downloaded thousands of times. This one I am not sure can be fixed or not by upstreaming changes that VIACOM makes; I haven't looked into it in enough detail. However an alternative is to implement some APIs that allow access to the code that sits beneath the F10 radio menus to reduce the chances of breaking in the future. A request that has been outstanding for many many years.  e.g.

With these two simple, and one potentially less simple, changes. ED makes life easier for thousands (Close to 10,000 than 1,000 I reckon) of its customers which were impacted by EDs breaking changes.

Edited June 22, 2023 by rurounijones

[KillerCharlie]

For crying out lout I cannot move the controls indicator to a different monitor.

I'm using DCS's crappy multi-monitor setup (which completely blanks out monitors you're not using - thanks!) and by default the controls indicator isn't on any of the screens. I can modify the ControlsIndicator_page.lua file to fix the problem but I no longer have a pure client. 

This especially pisses me off - DCS creates a problem with its terrible multi-monitor setup, then if I try to fix it I can't play online.

[rurounijones]

@c0ffAny updates on this? What about the suggestions two posts above for at least DiCE and Helios ?

[StandingCow]

ED please.... before you implement something that breaks current user created tools... ED needs to supply us with something equal or better. 

[Phil C6]

On 2/14/2023 at 2:19 AM, rurounijones said:

@c0ffAny updates on this? What about the suggestions two posts above for at least DiCE and Helios ?

Hi,

+1

 

Best regards

[rurounijones]

Quote

With these two simple, and one potentially less simple, changes. ED makes life easier for thousands (Close to 10,000 than 1,000 I reckon) of its customers which were impacted by EDs breaking changes.

@NineLine@BIGNEWY@Kate PerederkoCan we get an update on this topic?

Edited February 23, 2023 by rurounijones

[Jackalger]

I just ran into that issue and wasn't aware that it had changed recently. My problem now is that even with a clean and repaired version of DCS I can join, but after a while, like 10 min maybe, I get kicked, and the failed integrity check is back. It seems like the CMDS for the F16 and F18 are changing on the fly, and I don't understand how that is happening. I don't even fly F18 or F16 when it happens. I also disabled Vaicom, and have no DICE installed. What is going on? That needs to be fixed.

[Ghosty141]

I find it very irritating that these QoL features are not implemented while "less important" things get added and fixed. As a relatively new player I was quite stunned that you can't change the F10 radio menu in any way for example, same goes for the countermeasure programs. For multiplayer it's just too tedious, a better solution is needed. I really hope we get an update on the situation some time.

[jimiC]

+1 .came back to find DICE and VIACOM are busted in MP. genuinely unimpressed with how this has been rolled out. these mods and many others have filled a gap in capability that the core sim should actually cover, adding significant improvement to the user experience, simply incredible they are just being pushed to the side in the name of 'anti cheat' with broad brush strokes.

throw that on top of the progressively worse /stagnant core feature and performance of the sim, especially in VR, and its becoming a bit of a pain.

 

make an effort ED.

[Flankersea]

viewports export, should not have issues with IC.  just putting a screen on another monitor for people who make sim pit....fix this ED！！！

[Nickelmouse]

Just happened across this little gem today.  Seems relevant.  Do check it out.  (And I do hope that this gets fixed too).

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/170264-article-when-abuse-becomes-the-cost-of-doing-business/#comment-170279

Edited March 2, 2023 by Nickelmouse

[CaptPickguard]

Servers like Hoggit have been forced into the pure scripts setting to prevent griefers exploiting weapons. I think it goes without saying that servers shouldn't have to block all manner of scripts (cockpit exports, countermeasure programs, etc.) just to prevent cheating.

[rurounijones]

 

Quote

With these two simple, and one potentially less simple, changes. ED makes life easier for thousands (Close to 10,000 than 1,000 I reckon) of its customers which were impacted by EDs breaking changes.

@NineLine@BIGNEWY@Kate PerederkoCan we get an update on this topic?

[Deyth]

Hi,

I'm new to DCS; started in January and have already spent ~$300 on modules. I've spent most of the last two months learning the basic lingo, how to fly the Hornet, its systems, configuring the HOTAS, getting VoiceAttack and VAICOM working, building reflexes, etc. I finally felt confident enough last week to try a multiplayer and immediately hit this problem. If not for my own background, I doubt I would've understood what was happening since no real detail was provided by the error message plus my shield showed as green before joining the Hoggit training server.

Having just built up a basic level of understanding and reflexes, I'm not really keen to remove VAICOM and re-learn around that gap. I can't blame the server admins for prioritizing the integrity of their servers. This is very much ED's problem to resolve.

[RaptorJ]

I'm returning after a break in anticipation of the F-15E module's release. I finish updating and go to stretch my wings again in a training server and lo and behold, my IC fails. I do some reading and discover that I can no longer use DiCE and VIACOM because of an update ED has done. If you're not going to provide your own DTC yet, please don't strip the user created utilities that we're all using in it's stead. 

There's no way I'll be buying the F-15E or any other modules until some fix or compromise is reached.

[iLOVEwindmills]

Having a custom autostart also breaking IC is pretty sucky.

[samsi]

@c0ff @BIGNEWY

It would be nice if you could give us another update for this? It's been a while now, and @rurounijones has made some excellent points on how to tackle this, especially the CMDS stuff. Also changing of kneeboard position breaks purescripts, which sucks.

Making exceptions to purescript doesn't make sense. But an additional option to "purescripts=yes" or "=no" would be nice. Something like "purescripts=restricted", which will exempt some files from the purescripts check.

We can try to collect a list of files that need to be excluded for a good experience and you guys can tell us that it can be excluded, or why it can't. Then you make that happen.

Thank you for your work and I hope we can all work on a better DCS experience together. Teamwork makes the dream work as they say.

[Buzzkillington]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:44 AM, BIGNEWY said:

we do have the IC failure after leaving a server reported and the team will try to resolve

thanks

Please ED add the helios exports to the base files, at least the screen exports.  This is such a low lift for your developers and doesn't expose any cheating.  I understand that servers can turn off pure scripts but many wont because that check does protect the server from legitimate hacking.  Many of your players rely on simple exports for their simulators and this really is such an easy risk free thing for your team to fix!  If you want I will send you all the line for line fixes for the F16c