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DCS Gets Mentioned in latest LTT Video covering DLSS 3.0


Canada_Moose
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Just was about to watch this. It's Anthony, so this mentioning doesn't surprise me that much anymore. It's been said by Linus at some point that he even is watching Growling Sidewinder's channel sometimes. But I always like when DCS gets mentioned on channels with a larger audience which also has been the case multiple times aready on the RTFM Show on JayzTwoCents' channel. He also had an A-10 wallpaper going for quite some time during the pandemic  dealwithit.png

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Since ED Going with Vulkan, You'll Likely see FSR3.0, as AMD Provides it license free and like FSR2.0, it'll be a module easily added to a Vulkan Rendering Pipeline, as well as work on AMD, nVidia and Intel GPUs.

There's already other videos for DLSS3.0, inserting fake frames doesnt do anything but increase the FPS counter, cause input lag, and artifacts.

and with regards to DCS, the FPS Drops aren't caused by resolution limits, they are caused by CPU Overhead on DX11, and Serial Threaded Core, lowing resolution and upsampling isnt going to fix those problems and when you drop 20 fr/ps, inserting AI Adjusted frames to fill the spot of 20 Frames isnt going to fix the problem either.

Coming from someone that does programming, and graphics, 

DLSS is not the answer to DCS's Frame Rate situation.

The Answer is MT + Vulkan, Removing both CPU Bottlenecks that have a large effect on GPU Utilization and FPS.

23 hours ago, Eldur said:

Just was about to watch this. It's Anthony, so this mentioning doesn't surprise me that much anymore. It's been said by Linus at some point that he even is watching Growling Sidewinder's channel sometimes. But I always like when DCS gets mentioned on channels with a larger audience which also has been the case multiple times aready on the RTFM Show on JayzTwoCents' channel. He also had an A-10 wallpaper going for quite some time during the pandemic  dealwithit.png

Jay plays DCS.


Edited by SkateZilla
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52 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Since ED Going with Vulkan, You'll Likely see FSR3.0, as AMD Provides it license free and like FSR2.0, it'll be a module easily added to a Vulkan Rendering Pipeline, as well as work on AMD, nVidia and Intel GPUs.

There's already other videos for DLSS3.0, inserting fake frames doesnt do anything but increase the FPS counter, cause input lag, and artifacts.

and with regards to DCS, the FPS Drops aren't caused by resolution limits, they are caused by CPU Overhead on DX11, and Serial Threaded Core, lowing resolution and upsampling isnt going to fix those problems and when you drop 20 fr/ps, inserting AI Adjusted frames to fill the spot of 20 Frames isnt going to fix the problem either.

Coming from someone that does programming, and graphics, 

DLSS is not the answer to DCS's Frame Rate situation.

The Answer is MT + Vulkan, Removing both CPU Bottlenecks that have a large effect on GPU Utilization and FPS.

Jay plays DCS.

 

Not doubting your comments here but I would be interested to understand how the MSAA aspect factors into this? Right now, enabling 2x or worse still 4x MSAA has a huge impact on DCS. A form of DLSS or FSR wont help with this?

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MSAA and SSAA are both different things.

While SSAA is a simple Super Sample Technique (Rendering at 1.5 or 2.0x, so 2.0x 1080P/2K is essentially rendering at 4K.)

MSAA is an entirely different rendering technique, and has ALWAYS been a FPS Killer due to the nature of the morphological filtering,
Add in the fact that DCS uses Deferred shading, it makes MSAA Effects even worse.

Neither of those issues will be fixed by DLSS.


Edited by SkateZilla
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1 hour ago, Canada_Moose said:

Not doubting your comments here but I would be interested to understand how the MSAA aspect factors into this? Right now, enabling 2x or worse still 4x MSAA has a huge impact on DCS. A form of DLSS or FSR wont help with this?

Please don't mind SkateZilla's personal vendetta against DLSS. You are of course absolutely right that both DLSS and FSR would help with AA. I would dare to say that those upscaling technologies are in fact the future of anti aliasing. When DLSS was first shown, it was advertised as an anti aliasing technology. Some people are being triggered by DLSS only running on specific Nvidia hardware. This is a downside of course, but no reason to bend facts imho.
Ideally DCS would implement both FSR and DLSS. I think neither of them are particularly complex to implement as they live pretty much at the end of the rendering pipeline...


Edited by twistking
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My personal wishlist after half a decade with DCS: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=216873

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb SkateZilla:

MSAA and SSAA are both different things.

While SSAA is a simple Super Sample (Render at 1.5/2.0x so 1080P/2K is essentially rendering at 4K.

MSAA is an entirely different rendering technique, and has ALWAYS been a FPS Killer due to the nature of the morphological filtering,
Add in the fact that DCS uses Deferred shading, it makes MSAA Effects even worse.

Neither of those issues will be fixed by DLSS.

 

It is true that the lack of multi-core support is a bottleneck of DCS. BUT DLSS would still improve performance and graphics DEEPLY.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb twistking:

Please don't mind SkateZilla's personal vendetta against DLSS. You are of course absolutely right that both DLSS and FSR would help with AA. I would dare to say that those upscaling technologies are in fact the future of anti aliasing. When DLSS was first shown, it was advertised as an anti aliasing technology. Some people are being triggered by DLSS only running on specific Nvidia hardware. This is a downside of course, but no reason to bend facts imho.
Ideally DCS would implement both FSR and DLSS. I think neither of them are particularly complex to implement as they live pretty much at the end of the rendering pipeline...

 

Well brought to the point!

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2 hours ago, twistking said:

Please don't mind SkateZilla's personal vendetta against DLSS. You are of course absolutely right that both DLSS and FSR would help with AA. I would dare to say that those upscaling technologies are in fact the future of anti aliasing. When DLSS was first shown, it was advertised as an anti aliasing technology. Some people are being triggered by DLSS only running on specific Nvidia hardware. This is a downside of course, but no reason to bend facts imho.
Ideally DCS would implement both FSR and DLSS. I think neither of them are particularly complex to implement as they live pretty much at the end of the rendering pipeline...

 

First off I have nothing against DLSS,

Just the blind support and requests for DLSS 3.0, without understanding what it is and how it works.
Nevermind the fact it can only be used by a Single GPU Model, which is still less than 2% of total marketshare and behind a $1600 paywall.

1. RTX4090 users typically dont need DLSS3.0 they have the Power to run DCS at 4K fine, DLSS3.0 doesnt Support VR, either so that removes the VR Performance Argument.

2. The Mainstream Market would benefit most from DLSS3.0, 4060/4070/4080s

Nothing is being bent, everything stated comes directly from nVidia's own slides and Driver model notes.


Edited by SkateZilla
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Let's wait for multicore and Vulkan. One thing at a time, those are needed badly, because right now DCS is using a fraction of potential performance that the hardware could give. Throwing more power at the problem is expensive and, quite frankly, doesn't solve anything, because even the latest CPU will bog down on any decently complex mission when flying in 4K, because you'd be hard pressed to get a single core past 5GHz. The cure to DCS' slowness isn't the latest buzzword or the overpriced 4090, it's the technologies will let DCS actually use all of that fancy hardware.

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4 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Reason

 You know that has no place here. Even now, an elite spec ops team dispatched by Nvidia's CFO office is surrounding your house. The last thing you'll hear whispered in your ear will be, ''The days of declining GPU prices are over... for you.''


Edited by Mars Exulte
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1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

 You know that has no place here. Even now, an elite spec ops team dispatched by Nvidia's CFO office is surrounding your house. The last thing you'll hear whispered in your ear will be, ''The days of declining GPU prices are over... for you.''

 

Im under no contract or NDA with nVidia so they can't do anything for stating facts.

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DLSS is a super sampling method. You need to use it as a workaround if you are low on fps, but it's not magic: if you want to have a benchmark, try "the beautiful simulator" both with DLSS on and off: with DLSS on the frame rate improves, but you can't read your instruments as clearly as you do with DLSS off, especially in VR. I'm dealing with DLSS 2.0; DLSS 3.0 will be surely better, but more of the same. We need multi-threading first, then Vulkan. After all of this, if you are still low on fps, then it would be good to have a DLSS (or a FSR), but it would still be a compromise. Unfortunately fps don't come for free, regardless of what more or less unlikely characters tell on the internet.


Edited by nessuno0505
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Yeah, DLSS, FSR and whatever Intels equivalent is called aren't black magic and they do come at some cost. Primarily in degraded visual fidelity, I can see a problem with this in DCS, blurry gauges, harder to make out objects in the distance etc. I prefer the AMD way though, open for all to use, it's a win-win. Nvidia is living in lala-land with their proprietary technology and insane pricing. I like how g-sync basically died out because of amd's freesync but nvidia never learns appearantly.


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On 11/9/2022 at 8:12 PM, Germane said:

It is true that the lack of multi-core support is a bottleneck of DCS. BUT DLSS would still improve performance and graphics DEEPLY.

Eeerrrrr, no...

If you are already bottlenecked by the CPU the gains will be minimal or inexistent, if you look for benchmarks on that other flight simulator, which is cpu limited too, you will see that behaviour.

Of course im talking about DLSS without frame generation

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7 hours ago, addman said:

Yeah, DLSS, FSR and whatever Intels equivalent is called aren't black magic and they do come at some cost. Primarily in degraded visual fidelity, I can see a problem with this in DCS, blurry gauges, harder to make out objects in the distance etc. I prefer the AMD way though, open for all to use, it's a win-win. Nvidia is living in lala-land with their proprietary technology and insane pricing. I like how g-sync basically died out because of amd's freesync but nvidia never learns appearantly.

 

Considering the deep discussion already on Spotting w/ 4K Monitors

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb 5ephir0th:

Eeerrrrr, no...

If you are already bottlenecked by the CPU the gains will be minimal or inexistent, if you look for benchmarks on that other flight simulator, which is cpu limited too, you will see that behaviour.

Of course im talking about DLSS without frame generation

First, the bottleneck should eventually be history when multi-core support comes. Then, at the latest, one would also benefit fully from DLSS.
Secondly, it is not the case that the GPU load does not play a role.
You only have to look at the 4090 benchmarks. Despite the "bottleneck", there is a very clear increase in performance here.

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On 11/11/2022 at 5:18 PM, nessuno0505 said:

DLSS is a super sampling method. You need to use it as a workaround if you are low on fps, but it's not magic: if you want to have a benchmark, try "the beautiful simulator" both with DLSS on and off: with DLSS on the frame rate improves, but you can't read your instruments as clearly as you do with DLSS off, especially in VR. I'm dealing with DLSS 2.0; DLSS 3.0 will be surely better, but more of the same. We need multi-threading first, then Vulkan. After all of this, if you are still low on fps, then it would be good to have a DLSS (or a FSR), but it would still be a compromise. Unfortunately fps don't come for free, regardless of what more or less unlikely characters tell on the internet.

 

Super sampling ?

Are you not confusing DLSS with DSR ? 

DLSS is the exact opposite of super sampling. It renders the frame a LOWER resolution, and then makes the frame pretty with 'deeplearning A.I', which has access to a whole lot of pre-rendered high res 'screenshots'. 

DLSS 2.0 would make an enormous difference and i think would work very well because the graphics in DCS are extremely simple and repetitive. 
All the houses and buildings are basically copies from eachother, the trees and the aircraft  ... 

However, as long as we're still so incredibly cpu bottlenecked by that 1 cpu core, i doubt any of these new and awesome technologies will have the desired effect. 
And on top of that, as if that 1 core isn't sad enough, it also feels like many graphic calculations that are done by GPU in 'modern' games, are still done by CPU in DCS. 

 


Edited by AirMeister
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1 hour ago, AirMeister said:

DLSS is the exact opposite of super sampling.

Well, SS is in the DLSS for a reason.

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ok you got me there. 

Except the "super sampling" (it's actually upscaling, the complete opposite) is not from actually rendering, but from high res pictures. 

The name is weird. Lower res is actually rendered, then 'upscaled' (from that lower res) to your native resolution with those screenshots. 

Supersampling is the exact other way around. With supersampling you render a huge picture (lots of pixels), and then cram it into a smaller picture. 
Upscaling is rendering a smaller picture (very little pixels), and then stretch it out into a bigger picture. < That is what DLSS does, except better because it has the high res pictures to fill in the blurry gaps. 

It's all moot anyway, DCS will never have DLSS i'm afraid.  

 


Edited by AirMeister
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DLSS = Deep Learning Super Sampling.

Renders a Lower Resolution and uses Tensor/AI Algorithm to Filter, Clean, and Super Sample the image to desired resolution.

DLSS Renders Low, and Super Samples Higher,
DSR Renders High and Super Samples Lower.

If you think DLSS is the answer, Set DCS to Render 1280x720P, Launch a Mission and see if your FPS Problems are fixed, I guarantee they aren't, as I run a DCS 720 Window'd profile for deep testing, and there's no FPS Difference greater than 1-2% between 1440p and 720p, the bottle neck isnt the pixel fill rate, it's the API's Draw Call Processing and DCS's Core.


Edited by SkateZilla
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12 hours ago, Germane said:

First, the bottleneck should eventually be history when multi-core support comes. Then, at the latest, one would also benefit fully from DLSS.
Secondly, it is not the case that the GPU load does not play a role.
You only have to look at the 4090 benchmarks. Despite the "bottleneck", there is a very clear increase in performance here.

I dont have to look at 4090 benchmarks, i have one and already tested, it replaces a 3080ti and i can tell you that i still gets CPU limited on the same places than before with the 3080Ti, and the 4090 its two times the 3080Ti/3090 performance, it´s just pure logic, if X gpu have to wait for a CPU to finish the frame, a 100 times more powerfulll than X GPU will have it too

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13 hours ago, 5ephir0th said:

I dont have to look at 4090 benchmarks, i have one and already tested, it replaces a 3080ti and i can tell you that i still gets CPU limited on the same places than before with the 3080Ti, and the 4090 its two times the 3080Ti/3090 performance, it´s just pure logic, if X gpu have to wait for a CPU to finish the frame, a 100 times more powerfulll than X GPU will have it too

That's true. Went from 3080 (10gigs) with 9900k at 5ghz to a 4090 with same 9900k. Most improvement I got is in VR, I can cranck up the resolution, it's like nothing for the 4090 (got same fps 4k  dcs maxed out with the 4090 than 3080 with 2k montor and not high settings) but thing is, when I get into heavy cpu scenarios (carrier,multiplayer) I get almost same fps both 4090 than 3080. (frametime on the 4090 is way way lower, and ussage is around 30% where 3080 was 70-80%)

Now, I changed 9900k to 5800X3d (same ram sticks at 3200mhz) and oh boy. MSFS and DCS went crazy smooth. Did get avg 3-5ms cpu frametime lower.  Same in MSFS and ACC.

On the other hand, I got almost same fps in other games like cyberpunk,bf2042 or COD MW.


Edited by ECTAE
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36 minutes ago, ECTAE said:

 Most improvement I got is in VR, I can cranck up the resolution, it's like nothing for the 4090 (got same fps 4k  dcs maxed out with the 4090 than 3080 with 2k montor and not high settings)

Just that, i cranked up resolution, added MSAA, more visibility, etc, but almost same fps but i still get very low fps on some scenarios due to CPU limitation, i just received the 13600k so i will test in the next days

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23 minutes ago, AirMeister said:

I'm still not sure what exactly changed with the last patches and why it comes with a 25% performance decrease. 
 

It does not for everyone so at the moment we dont know either. Still looking into it. 
There is a windows performance issue that may have contributed to this, Windows 11 22h2 introduced some issues apparently  however even with this I did not see a problem on my machine which is running the latest updates. 

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