Why and how to use pedals?

[dlder]

So, hear me out: I've been using the Z-rudder for everything. DCS jets, Arma3 and other "shooters", Mech-Games and so on and so forth. And I've never felt that something was missing.

So why use pedals?
They ain't cheap, it's another piece of hardware only to be used for FlightSimming and it seems kinda inconvenient - I suppose - to have your feet in a fixed position all the time.

I get why it would be really helpful for helicopters, right?

But does anyone ever use the rudder when flying a jet? What for? (taxiing is a given) I guess, never having had any rudders, I just can't think of anything I would need them for.

The problem is, a lot of the better HOTAS don't seem to feature the Z-Axis anymore... so I kinda need pedals. That's why I really wanna know how to "properly use them in a jet".

Thanks for your input

 

[Tenebrae Aeternae]

Here´s a bit about fine aiming and maneuvering with rudder in combat. Basic flight you don´t need it much at all in a jet except for landing and take-offs. Pedals are often overlooked, but very very useful to have. Z-Axis in a stick makes you prone for using rudder when you don´t want to, and when you do it eats the precision from the other stick axis. Pedals are pretty awesome to have, even if they don´t seem like the sexiest purchase at first.
 

 

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

For Tomcat they are a must. For VTOL Harrier too. Some like rudder input for refuelling rather than dropping the wings.
For warbirds, I suppose so as well.
More modern jets, they are less used, but always good to have them.
For other sims, I liek flying Cessna 152 on MSFS, they are a must as well.
I don´t think it´s a good idea dogfighting twisting your stick and applying roll and pitch input at the same time though.

[Hector45]

Came to say the above. In the Tomcat at high AOA you use the rudder exclusively to roll not stick. So depending on your airframe they can be essential.

[corn322]

I use rudder often in Mig-21. They are used for differential braking on the ground to turn. Used in high AoA situations to roll the aircraft as ailerons loose effectiveness. Also used to make slight heading corrections, as rudder input will cause the craft to roll. Used in coordinated turns to, well, turn better. Especially at low speed, i.e. during landing approach.

[Mars Exulte]

9 hours ago, dlder said:

So why use pedals?

 Same reason you'd buy a stick extension. Do you need it? No, you can get by without it, but it gives much finer control. Also, greater multi-tasking capacity, there is no way to claim you can manipulate twist, pitch/roll, and manipulate controls all simultaneously on one hand without losing efficiency. There's a reason literally EVERY aircraft of EVERY type for 110 years of flight did it this way.

9 hours ago, dlder said:

They ain't cheap, it's another piece of hardware only to be used for FlightSimming

 Eh, with minimal tweaking they can be used as throttle and brakes, or a variety of other items if desired.

9 hours ago, dlder said:

and it seems kinda inconvenient - I suppose - to have your feet in a fixed position all the time.

 Bigger issue is the relatively large footprint they require. You need a wide open area for them.

9 hours ago, dlder said:

I get why it would be really helpful for helicopters, right?

  It is borderline essential for helos.

9 hours ago, dlder said:

But does anyone ever use the rudder when flying a jet?

 Coordinated flight is largely optional, but you definitely use rudder for guns fights, and pedals provide much greater precision.

9 hours ago, dlder said:

The problem is, a lot of the better HOTAS don't seem to feature the Z-Axis anymore... so I kinda need pedals.

 Very few people will dump $5-800 on ultra high end sticks and then use a twist axis. They can be retrofitted, but the overwhelming majority of that crowd is going to be enthusiasts with some sort of pit. And a twist axis is very poorly suited to extended sticks.

 

 Pedals DO take some getting used to, it's a whole new set of motor skills, but tbh once you get used to it, it's kinda like TrackIR or something where you don't know how you got by without it.

[t_hedlund]

I recently switched to using rudder pedals, and as mentioned they aren't required but it does add to the control and in some regards the realism.

I started sim flying by using the Z axis in the stick, and shortly before I switched, I started looking closer at my inputs and I didn't realize every time I was applying the rudder, I was also inputting aileron, again I didn't realize that I was doing that, as I was naturally compensating for it.

From there I switched to Winwing throttle and stick (without the twist stick) tried using one of the sliders (on the throttle) for the rudder, that actually worked well. That set up didn't have any toe brakes, so it was still hard to fly any of the WWII aircraft. I also had to remind myself to reset it back to neutral at the start of every flight, otherwise it would usually equated to some sort of chaos. 

As mentioned before they do take some time to get used to, I think the A-4 is the hardest one to taxi with, but once you start getting the hang of, look out. 

 

[BitMaster]

You can’t fly properly without rudder pedals.

crosswinds, slip approach, aiming correction, wing drop trim, etc etc

“Fly the Ball“

Edited November 12, 2022 by BitMaster

[BuzzU]

44 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

You can’t fly properly without rudder pedals.

crosswinds, slip approach, aiming correction, wing drop trim, etc etc

“Fly the Ball“

 

Exactly, and toe brakes are handy too.

[dlder]

Thanks for all your input! Greatly appreciated!

I guess I'll have to try it. I don't have a lot of space, but hopefully the dimensions are indicated on the product pages^^

Thrustmaster	TPR	530€
MFG	Crosswind	337€
VIRPIL	ACE Collection Flight Rudder Pedals	420€
VKB	T-RUDDER PEDALS MK.IV	215€
Slaw Device	RX Viper V2 Rudder Pedals	600€

(incl. VAT, excl. shipping)

Quite honestly, VKB's price looks okay'ish; 500 just for pedals... seems wild. But maybe it's a buy-once-cry-once kinda thing...

Edited November 18, 2022 by dlder
updated prices and included tax

[tomcat_driver]

45 minutes ago, dlder said:

Thanks for all your input! Greatly appreciated!

I guess I'll have to try it. I don't have a lot of space, but hopefully the dimensions are indicated on the product pages^^

Thrustmaster	TPR	500€
MFG	Crosswind	350€
VIRPIL	ACE Collection Flight Rudder Pedals	350€
VKB	T-RUDDER PEDALS MK.IV	199€
Slaw Device	RX Viper V2 Rudder Pedals	495€

Quite honestly, VKB's price looks okay'ish; 500 just for pedals... seems wild. But maybe it's a buy-once-cry-once kinda thing...

Are those prices including or excluding VAT?

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

1 hour ago, dlder said:

Thanks for all your input! Greatly appreciated!

I guess I'll have to try it. I don't have a lot of space, but hopefully the dimensions are indicated on the product pages^^

Thrustmaster	TPR	500€
MFG	Crosswind	350€
VIRPIL	ACE Collection Flight Rudder Pedals	350€
VKB	T-RUDDER PEDALS MK.IV	199€
Slaw Device	RX Viper V2 Rudder Pedals	495€

Quite honestly, VKB's price looks okay'ish; 500 just for pedals... seems wild. But maybe it's a buy-once-cry-once kinda thing...

VKB could be tricky for warbirds, because of the lack of physical brake; I don´t fly warbirds so can´t make a statement here. Other than that, they are pure gold. For helis they are the closer thing to the real deal. For jets, I use them mostly with no issues, because I don´t mind assign the axis brake at any other input from my HOTAS and panels.
Small footprint. Moving your ankles instead of your hip. Manufacturing quality is top notch. Sensors are better than overpriced TPR and on par with the others from your list.
Many many users drop VKb from their shopping list right after reading they got no physical brakes. In all honesty, it´s theirs to lost.

[Mars Exulte]

2 hours ago, dlder said:

But maybe it's a buy-once-cry-once kinda thing...

 More it's a low production volume, extremely niche for enthusiasts thing. Component wise, the electronics are just simple 3-axis gamecontroller guts, with either cheaper potentiometers or better magnetic sensors. The actual pedals themselves, how they're constructed, what options you have for adjusting tension, and overall quality are what you're paying for (and again, the very low production volume).

The highest end is Slaw's ViperRX, made to order from machined aluminum, with adjustable pitch on the pedals, customisable pedal shape, attachments to mount dampers, and top quality. They can be made to closely replicate the feel of real pedals. They also cost $700 and have a moderate waiting list.

The low end is Saitek at $150-300. They are plastic with cheapest guts and components, and minimal adjustments for tension (including the overpriced and much touted combat pedals, they are LITERALLY the exact same internals with fancy pedals and a price premium). I would avoid the plastic Saitek and CH pedals entirely. They're crap. Thrustmaster may be more reliable on the low end of stuff, although nominally similar.

Crosswinds, VKB, and TPR, and Virpil's offering make up most of the mid range and are all pretty good quality with varying degrees of customability with Virpil and TPR being toward the upper range and Crosswinds and VKB covering the lower end. They range from $250-500 if I remember.

[dlder]

On 11/16/2022 at 7:26 PM, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

Small footprint.

That's gtk! I really have to be mindful about the width...

On 11/16/2022 at 7:26 PM, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

because of the lack of physical brake

Hm... don't you use the Joystick "brake axis" for that? Like WinWing F-16, Virpil Mongoos or Constellation (I'm gonna buy one of these in the near future). They have a brake lever like the MiG-29.

 

On 11/16/2022 at 8:56 PM, Mars Exulte said:

Crosswinds, VKB, and TPR, and Virpil's offering make up most of the mid range and are all pretty good quality with varying degrees of customability with Virpil and TPR being toward the upper range and Crosswinds and VKB covering the lower end. They range from $250-500 if I remember.

Thanks! I'll give them a closer look

[sirrah]

3 hours ago, dlder said:

That's gtk! I really have to be mindful about the width...

Hm... don't you use the Joystick "brake axis" for that? Like WinWing F-16, Virpil Mongoos or Constellation (I'm gonna buy one of these in the near future). They have a brake lever like the MiG-29.

 

Thanks! I'll give them a closer look

I bought my current Saitek Pro Flight pedals about 5 years ago 2nd hand for well under €100,- and they've never let me down. Sure, perhaps not the most beautiful, best accuracy or suitable for pilots that prefer to ram the pedals with high force, but they're relatively cheap and more than accurate enough (also for helo flying).

In these kind of threads, people usually kindly advise to purchase new stuff. Although I understand that, I'm just saying that you can really save money by buying used gear. (of course you should be a bit more careful and trust the person from who you purchase, or pickup the item if it's not to far away)

 

Maybe I'm lucky with my purchases in the past, but I've never been let down by any of the used products I've purchased. And to give you an indication of what I purchased 2nd hand:

Rift cv1, HP Reverb G1, TM Warthog, TM F/A-18 grip, Saitek Pedals, Simshaker JetPad, G-27 steering wheel+pedals, (and I probably forget about a few more)

 

But that's just my 2 cents  

[LucShep]

5 hours ago, sirrah said:

In these kind of threads, people usually kindly advise to purchase new stuff. Although I understand that, I'm just saying that you can really save money by buying used gear. (of course you should be a bit more careful and trust the person from who you purchase, or pickup the item if it's not to far away)

 

Maybe I'm lucky with my purchases in the past, but I've never been let down by any of the used products I've purchased. And to give you an indication of what I purchased 2nd hand:

Rift cv1, HP Reverb G1, TM Warthog, TM F/A-18 grip, Saitek Pedals, Simshaker JetPad, G-27 steering wheel+pedals, (and I probably forget about a few more)

 

But that's just my 2 cents  

Fully agreed.
2nd hand stuff is absolutely worth it - if in the right price and condition, which is actually often the case in the used market for controllers and peripherals (as well as other PC hardware components).

[dlder]

On 11/16/2022 at 6:40 PM, tomcat_driver said:

Are those prices including or excluding VAT?

Good question!

I've updated the prices and included taxes; now the differences are really apparent!

If I go the Virpil and not the WinWing route, I'll probably use their pedals. With WinWing, I'm gonna buy the Crosswind I guess.

But I have to admit: I didn't yet watch/read any reviews of any of those pedals.

Cheers!

[Voyager]

I used the CH Pro Pedals for a long time. They're solid but the mechanism does tend to cut the wire to the toe breaks.

MFG Crosswinds are definitely in the "buy once cry once" category. I expect the Virpril and WinWing ones are as well. That's about the only bright side to being in the hyper niche catagory. Things are expensive, but most of them are built to last forever. 

When it's a handful of guys, and their waiting list is out past retirement, anything less just isn't worth the time or money to build. 

[Mars Exulte]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:38 PM, Voyager said:

MFG Crosswinds are definitely in the "buy once cry once" category.

 I just checked and saw they have a site now and saw their offering is substantially different from years ago. Sameish price but looks like a better and sturdier overall design. Nice!