is DCS a Ship Simulator and weapons systems Simulator only ?

[schmiefel]

7 minutes ago, GOZR said:

Take the MiG21 or F14  pull the stick on a heavy turn .. you'll see air friction buffets  retalted to a visual effect corresponding to a turn etc. .. well this can be applied to turbulence as well but they are not at the moment.

Maybe this has to do with how the plane models itself handle certain aspects of airflow. Take the P-47 for example, as far as I know (and I know not much about how DCS really models the simulation of flight besides that it uses a mix of table based and finite elements theory calculations) even simulates the air turbulence that the cowl flaps generate in flight when fully extended. So maybe its a mix of not (actually) simulated effects and a lack in the modelling of a certain aircrafts flight behavior?

[GOZR]

51 minutes ago, schmiefel said:

Maybe this has to do with how the plane models itself handle certain aspects of airflow. Take the P-47 for example, as far as I know (and I know not much about how DCS really models the simulation of flight besides that it uses a mix of table based and finite elements theory calculations) even simulates the air turbulence that the cowl flaps generate in flight when fully extended. So maybe its a mix of not (actually) simulated effects and a lack in the modelling of a certain aircrafts flight behavior?

That would be interesting to know but I am going to test.. 

[Baldrick33]

12 hours ago, schmiefel said:

So besides the technical restrictions modern hardware and its limits provide, it makes only sense to a certain degree to simulate that all like nature works and even sometimes you have to do something 'wrong' to trick the human experience.

Over the years I have found that I favour specific developers for race and flight sims. Not out of any sense of brand loyalty or sunk cost fallacy but simply because they work best at "feeling real" for me and fooling my brain.

Looking back at some of the early race and flight sims, it is hard to imagine how I found them convincing but that is part of the developer's trickery working with such limited technology. I do believe that trickery still exists and will continue to do so for some time. I have tried pretty much every other flight sim and for me as a package DCS works best for me in creating an illusion of flying.

My first ever flight as a passenger was as an eighteen year old in a Cessna piloted by another eighteen year old, taking off on a grass strip on a blustery day and including a brief flight myself (don't judge!). That was an unforgettable experience that I doubt any domestic affordable flight sim is likely to come close. I find flying Cessnas in sims as dull as ditchwater, devoid of the feelings in the stomach of "dropping from the sky".

DCS does come close though to providing me with the visceral sensations through such glamorous combat aircraft coupled with its flight models and immersive sound wrapped in virtual reality.

Of course there will always be more that can be achieved through improved modelling and hardware but that will always be the case, the quest for perfection is never ending but the continual development is the developer's strategy and as a community of developers and players we keep on pushing.

Priorities will always differ, however, and missing or limited FM features may be a show stopper for one and of little relevance to others. It doesn't just reflect our real world experiences but how we are wired.. We only need to look at how some F1 drivers have adopted domestic sim racing titles as hobbies (and are very good at them) whilst some others don't get on with simulators at all.

[schmiefel]

10 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

DCS does come close though to providing me with the visceral sensations through such glamorous combat aircraft coupled with its flight models and immersive sound wrapped in virtual reality.

My aunt used to be a real pilot with a PPL licence and she had an aerobatics licence, too. After I had received my RiftS VR headset I seated her one day in my simpit, launched DCS and loaded the YAK-52 module. She was quite impressed, how real that felt and while she tried some aerobatics the YAK got in a spin that she couldn't manage to get out (her active flying time was years behind that time and she had only flown CAP and Zlin types of aircraft)  - but that situation in DCS, spinning down from some thousend feet, was that frightening real for her that she had to interrupt the session immediately.

10 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

We only need to look at how some F1 drivers have adopted domestic sim racing titles as hobbies (and are very good at them) whilst some others don't get on with simulators at all.

That: it's all about getting personally immersed and DCS does a real good job for me as for that matter. My personal real flying experience is just from sitting besides real pilots in the front seat and flying DCS myself in VR comes very close to that experience plus I can steer the planes all by myself without risking anybody's life

[GOZR]

 

Easy to find examples on youtubes

[Mars Exulte]

9 hours ago, GOZR said:

Easy to find examples on youtubes

Of what, somebody hamming for the camera?

[GOZR]

i am amazed of many of you do not want this implementation that is a huge priority for flight..   managing systems is fun but managing button systems with weathers effects is even more..  trying to land .. trying to fight.. trying to bombs etc with a weather effects is far more interesting.. harder yes .. but I am not here because it's easy.. i like it when there are challenges .. 

Edited December 7, 2022 by GOZR

[TheFreshPrince]

You can set the wind speed and turbulences to maximum in the mission generator and generate some snow storms and time to night if you like challenges. Also include some random system failures in the settings. But that probably won't be realistic. As far as I understand, pilots want to avoid such flying conditions in real life,because it's too risky. 

[Baldrick33]

21 minutes ago, GOZR said:

i am amazed of many of you do not want this implementation that is a huge priority for flight..   managing systems is fun but managing button systems with weathers effects is even more..  trying to land .. trying to fight.. trying to bombs etc with a weather effects is far more interesting.. harder yes .. but I am not here because it's easy.. i like it when there are challenges .. 

 

You talk as if DCS is devoid of weather effects. One of my quick test missions for setting up helicopter controllers is the Persian Gulf ship landing hard or something similar in the Huey. The conditions are variable and sometimes very stormy making it far more difficult and challenging.

I understand you are looking for more specifics but if you want to make it harder with weather effects there is a lot already there at your disposal. You won't likely see it set on the multiplayer servers but that is not down to ED.

[Eugel]

25 minutes ago, GOZR said:

i am amazed of many of you do not want this implementation that is a huge priority for flight..  

It´s not like nobody wants that. But most people want their computers to be able to run DCS with acceptable framerates. For most players, especially in VR, that is the top priority.
And "realistic" weather simulations, like you demand here, won´t make that possible.

[GOZR]

15 minutes ago, TheFreshPrince said:

You can set the wind speed and turbulences to maximum in the mission generator and generate some snow storms and time to night if you like challenges. Also include some random system failures in the settings. But that probably won't be realistic. As far as I understand, pilots want to avoid such flying conditions in real life,because it's too risky. 

That is the point..  its very badly done

9 minutes ago, Eugel said:

It´s not like nobody wants that. But most people want their computers to be able to run DCS with acceptable framerates. For most players, especially in VR, that is the top priority.
And "realistic" weather simulations, like you demand here, won´t make that possible.

I understand.. having effect of the f14 getting buffets vibrations do not kill fps.. same

[Dragon1-1]

The F-14's buffeting is purely a function of AoA, it doesn't happen at random in flight. I agree, high alpha should, when appropriate, produce buffet, although FBW jets such as the Viper or Mirage generally won't let the jet into that regime (Hornet will, although you have to try to get that slow). However, things like clean air turbulence, complex air movement effects around clouds, and the like, that's rather more complex, and, just like wake turbulence, a potential performance issue. You can already set wind, and it does complicate landings, bombing and even takeoffs if crosswind is high enough.

Or you can, you know, buy a Buttkicker or a JetPad, and feel the vibrations. It's a pricey solution but it works in all aircraft.

[Mars Exulte]

15 hours ago, GOZR said:

i am amazed of many of you do not want this implementation that is a huge priority for flight.

 It has already been explained some/many of the things you're requesting ARE in the game. It has also been explained it's a game, and we mostly have realistic expectations. It's also been stated by you you believe these other games simulate everything better, which with the exception of MSFS' weather effects (which I feel safe in saying are developed to a higher level, at least at present), range from ''dubious'' to ''laughable''.

15 hours ago, GOZR said:

   managing systems is fun but managing button systems with weathers effects is even more..  trying to land .. trying to fight.. trying to bombs etc with a weather effects is far more interesting.. harder yes .. but I am not here because it's easy.. i like it when there are challenges .. 

 

 Yes, we know, you think you're very hardcore. You've said that several times. That's got nothing to do with anything, though, so... good to see you are sufficiently limber to pat yourself on the back like that!

[BIGNEWY]

On 12/7/2022 at 10:44 AM, schmiefel said:

My aunt used to be a real pilot with a PPL licence and she had an aerobatics licence, too. After I had received my RiftS VR headset I seated her one day in my simpit, launched DCS and loaded the YAK-52 module. She was quite impressed, how real that felt and while she tried some aerobatics the YAK got in a spin that she couldn't manage to get out (her active flying time was years behind that time and she had only flown CAP and Zlin types of aircraft)  - but that situation in DCS, spinning down from some thousend feet, was that frightening real for her that she had to interrupt the session immediately.

Het schmiefel, great to hear about your Aunt's experience with the Yak-52, coming from a real pilots perspective it is nice to know we are as close as we can be to real life. Our real Yak-52 pilot has given a lot of time and experience to make it the module it is. 

 

16 hours ago, GOZR said:

That is the point..  its very badly done

GOZR appreciate you may not like how turbulence is done or want more but please keep it constructive. We have more weather improvements coming in time. 

[GOZR]

6 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Het schmiefel, great to hear about your Aunt's experience with the Yak-52, coming from a real pilots perspective it is nice to know we are as close as we can be to real life. Our real Yak-52 pilot has given a lot of time and experience to make it the module it is. 

 

GOZR appreciate you may not like how turbulence is done or want more but please keep it constructive. We have more weather improvements coming in time. 

Bignewy.  I understand and I am trying to be constructive with out offend anyone..  I do not want ..  there are a very nice amount of pilots trying DCS and others.. 

But there are some others that are actually fan of the Sims and equiped with good hotas and VR .. like myself.. we fly the sims and DCS for very different personal reasons and it is good and we dont take it as just a game but more serious .. No ego hete is good... I have been since the begining and made some mods etc. So i always try to get as much as real possible.. at list visually .. i understand the difficulties but I think what I say is very important to work on and making sure the Dev of DCS are aware that we want the flights to feel as real as possible too just not only rainbows . we all want this and same as you ofcourse.. but it would be good to have an open talk about it .. the community has a lot of very experienced and talented people in all field. I am experience on flying the Yak the MiG etc.. and do graphics as well . How could we help?  Talk about? Been more transparent with this.. ? Etc..  I apology if i am abrupt but this is the phrase i can form with my English knowledge..

We all love it and wanting the best.. it is fun.. social.. educative and therapeutic. 

 

I will try to do a video to show a little in DCS.. Thank you for participating

Edited December 8, 2022 by GOZR

[BIGNEWY]

Hi 

We can see your feedback in this thread, you have been pretty clear about what you want to see, I dont think repeating it is going to help. 

As mentioned we have more weather improvements planned for the future. 

We already have wake turbulence, and as weather work develops we will see more features added. 

thank you

 

 

[DishDoggie]

I would like to see this same thing with Helicopters with ground effect and Next to Buildings, over rooftops,  next to and Over Oil rigs, hovering 100' and thank you very cool video.

[BitMaster]

Let me phrase it like Goethe did:   Namen sind nur Schall und Rauch   engl. Names are nothing but sound and smoke

You can call DCS whatever you think fits your POV but it likely won't change how others perceive it.

 

If I don't fly myself, which I don't do often these days, I still enjoy lots of YT content about DCS from all aspects,

be it a 2h Deep Strike, a fun 1v1 Dogfight or comparing modules, it's much better than 90% of what's shown on TV, incl. Netflix and Prime Video.

 

Every other year real valuable goodies got added, most for free !, and I don't see a reason to really moan. Yes, they, ED, lack behind in some areas, but hey,

they don't have the force to move such things in 1 year. Let's be happy that there is a thing called DCS at all. 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by BitMaster

[GOZR]

On 12/14/2022 at 11:58 AM, BitMaster said:

They don't have the force to move such things in 1 year.??  You meant 20 years..  

Going to answer on a better way

On 12/14/2022 at 11:58 AM, BitMaster said:

 

 

 

 

 

[GOZR]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:36 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi 

We can see your feedback in this thread, you have been pretty clear about what you want to see, I dont think repeating it is going to help. 

As mentioned we have more weather improvements planned for the future. 

We already have wake turbulence, and as weather work develops we will see more features added. 

thank you

 

 

Those are like a car going through truck melted tire on a freeway.. due to the lack of the rest of the physics . really..  need tlc  just important to see that .. what about this?  When we speak about something that is not right you guys are very vague or dismissive or we feel guilty to ask.. but here it is ,, DCS in Atmospheric is lacking big time.. I will make a video and talk about this .. 

 

Can you tell us please what is on teh work?  after 20 years i think it maybe time to lets us know the plan and what .. DCS is falling behind for sure .. what can you tell us ?  Thx

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by BIGNEWY
1.15

[BIGNEWY]

30 minutes ago, GOZR said:

Those are like a car going through truck melted tire on a freeway.. due to the lack of the rest of the physics . really..  need tlc  just important to see that .. what about this?  When we speak about something that is not right you guys are very vague or dismissive or we feel guilty to ask.. but here it is ,, DCS in Atmospheric is lacking big time.. I will make a video and talk about this .. 

 

Can you tell us please what is on teh work?  after 20 years i think it maybe time to lets us know the plan and what .. DCS is falling behind for sure .. what can you tell us ?  Thx

 

 

I dont agree with your assessment of the wake turbulence, but you are welcome to your opinion. 

As mentioned as weather work continues we will see more features added, when we are ready we will post more information. 

Please note I removed your image, please keep it DCS related here. 

thank you

[GOZR]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

I dont agree with your assessment of the wake turbulence, but you are welcome to your opinion. 

As mentioned as weather work continues we will see more features added, when we are ready we will post more information. 

Please note I removed your image, please keep it DCS related here. 

thank you

Ok At list you saw .. this is what would be fabulous.. I flew a lot irl. it's hard to explain via posts.. with out sounding annoying.. I know but I do have a quite important experience on MiG and Yak9 not 52 .. I will try to explain.. many have never experienced those effects.. lets take an example of a vehicle that can relate to aircraft on just 2 plains not 3.. lets take a Motorcycle since a many have more driven than an aircraft but the basics are the same..  you are on the road lets say driving at 180mph ( to have some good strong wind)  then approach yourself from an other motorcycle going 178mph coming from behind you will feel and see the buffets then the absorption.. the sucking effects and the push effects etc.. or going through at speed ..  it's easy to imagine ..  but in DCS it feels like you ae riding on the freeway and you have those melted asphalt tires tracks slopping effect..  and that is only for your wake turbulence effect..  now for teh atmospheric effects it's an other story and I think because it's lacking of it that what is off to me..  we do not have the flight effects that we have on a real aircraft..  It is easy to simulate those kinds of effects riding a motorcycle more or less .. Now tell me if i am off my thought here.. a Flight "simulation" is first about flying and everything is built on top of it.. not systems and weather aircraft effects after..  I hope i am clear..  now i know you said that you guys are working on it.. well in 2010 it was the same  even before with Lockon and on today...  Would you tell us what are the work done or project direction for this long awaited focus ? this is from a stand point of view of a Pilot ..  Thank you to spend time on this with us.  remember this is nothing to do with aircraft FM  and performances... ( the picture was very explicit )  We all have the passion for DCS

Edited December 22, 2022 by GOZR

[norman99]

Honestly, I've never found a flight simulator that truly recreates the feel of "atmospherics", as you call it, completely realistically. Whether it's P3D, MSFS, XP, DCS or even a $20M Level-D full motion sim (and I've spent more than enough time in these), they all have their deficiencies. In this regard, DCS is no better, and also no worse, than anything else currently on offer. Commercial FFS systems have an advantage, as the motion goes along way to tricking the mind and therefore increasing the perceived realism.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Definitely if you think you're gonna ever "feel" those things in front of a screen I believe you're deluding yourself. It's a PC game, it's  screen, even with all the bell and whistles, VR headset, FFB joysticks and all other devices which even for just the joystick I don't know any but let's say you could get them, FFB rudder pedals and throttle, and some kind of haptic set either just a seat cushion like or corporal, and let's play big, a home self moving platform with the best movement you could possibly get. Even with all of that, you won't """feel"""  like in a cockpit, it's just trickery, it's just to cheat your mind and if you don't play along with the trickery you won't think you're there at all, EVER.

Then again, @GOZR you talk like you think just the software itself and a screen have to trick your mind and all, but you don't want to play along the game to help your mind be tricked which is the most we can strive for in a PC being just a game. For my taste, DCS is the most "deceiving" simulation software out there, it's were I find it the easiest to get "tricked" and "feel" what's going on like IRL because all those effects you claim not to be there are in fact there, maybe not perfect which is always the case with just software, but it is there more than any other simulation software I've ever known while apparently you don't let it do the trick for you while you praise other titles I know as a matter of fact aren't that good, not even close, in deceiving you mind about being up there or simulating those effects. So easy to see why as myself and others already said I don't think you're being realistic at all about your expectations with all of that. If you want to actually "feel" things for the time being (let's not discuss what the distant future could be and what it might be invented but let's just face what we have right now and it'll keep being like that for a long time before some hardware/software breakthrough) go fly IRL. But your claims about this or that are wrong in DCS while praising other titles I know don't even bother in modelling those same effects means something's wrong with your feelings, not with DCS. If you don't even let the software trick your mind to think you're there (but let other lesser softwares to do it) you are being just highly subjective not paying attention to things that are actually there but you dismiss for some reason so not letting those effects to trick your mind. Why it's like that for you, I believe we can't answer that here, it's a thing of you mate.

[GOZR]

On 12/22/2022 at 4:11 AM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Definitely if you think you're gonna ever "feel" those things in front of a screen I believe you're deluding yourself. It's a PC game, it's  screen, even with all the bell and whistles, VR headset, FFB joysticks and all other devices which even for just the joystick I don't know any but let's say you could get them, FFB rudder pedals and throttle, and some kind of haptic set either just a seat cushion like or corporal, and let's play big, a home self moving platform with the best movement you could possibly get. Even with all of that, you won't """feel"""  like in a cockpit, it's just trickery, it's just to cheat your mind and if you don't play along with the trickery you won't think you're there at all, EVER.

Then again, @GOZR you talk like you think just the software itself and a screen have to trick your mind and all, but you don't want to play along the game to help your mind be tricked which is the most we can strive for in a PC being just a game. For my taste, DCS is the most "deceiving" simulation software out there, it's were I find it the easiest to get "tricked" and "feel" what's going on like IRL because all those effects you claim not to be there are in fact there, maybe not perfect which is always the case with just software, but it is there more than any other simulation software I've ever known while apparently you don't let it do the trick for you while you praise other titles I know as a matter of fact aren't that good, not even close, in deceiving you mind about being up there or simulating those effects. So easy to see why as myself and others already said I don't think you're being realistic at all about your expectations with all of that. If you want to actually "feel" things for the time being (let's not discuss what the distant future could be and what it might be invented but let's just face what we have right now and it'll keep being like that for a long time before some hardware/software breakthrough) go fly IRL. But your claims about this or that are wrong in DCS while praising other titles I know don't even bother in modelling those same effects means something's wrong with your feelings, not with DCS. If you don't even let the software trick your mind to think you're there (but let other lesser softwares to do it) you are being just highly subjective not paying attention to things that are actually there but you dismiss for some reason so not letting those effects to trick your mind. Why it's like that for you, I believe we can't answer that here, it's a thing of you mate.

You missed the point.. I really don't explain well..  But lets see a good talk about this would be fine..  I am not taking your piece of cake away.. we all love it but having some effects simulate some winds.. buffets and turbulence more would e a big change on the visual feel of DCS..   yesterday I landed virtually an Hellcat on a carrier and it's far far better effects than landing a P47 on a carrier in DCS..   So all we want is teh best .. we all want it