How many bombers should you realistically be able to shoot down?

[Hog_driver]

From time to time, I fly the Kurfurst and Anton against B-17s to get an idea how difficult it must have been for German pilots to try do defend the Reich against "viermots".

I completed the Jagdflieger campaign and spent a few hours flying the Anton, so I can't call myself experienced.

However, according to the debriefing screen, I was able to shoot down (in one mission) 3 B-17s flying the Kurfurst and as many as 7 B-17s flying the Anton. It was the Channel Bomber Intercept mission, slightly modified. I know that four 20 mm cannons are no joke, but 7 Flying Fortresses seem to be too much. IIRC, Franz Stigler shot down two in one day in a Bf-109.

So something seems to be a bit off, either the guns are too effective or the bombers too vulnerable (why not both?).

(Bomber AI was set to Random, so gunners' effectiveness varied).

[grafspee]

I think is depends where hits goes, in one case you can down B-17 in short burst in other case you can unload whole mag and B-17 still flying.

[falcon_120]

I think is depends where hits goes, in one case you can down B-17 in short burst in other case you can unload whole mag and B-17 still flying.

Exactly, difficult to say. Technically you could down a b17 with like 10/20 rounds if you manage to hit only engines. Or not down one despite wasting a full weapon load if you don't hit nothing critical...

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Hog_driver]

Yes, you're both right, but I still got the impression that it was too easy. Random AI difficulty could help, as the gunners were not firing much and I could take my time aiming, but I don't think it would be possible to get that many victories IRL.

[grafspee]

I know that day time bombing before P-51 long range escort was introduced, B-17 squadrons were suffering heavy loses.

[Hog_driver]

True, but I don't think that one German fighter could shoot down several B-17 in one mission.

[Gunfreak]

Most ww2 fighter pilots didn't shoot down anything. Bomber or other fighter. If you shoot down 1 enemy plane(any type) in a campaign of 12-16 missions, you are already way way way above realistic figures.

A pilot who could shoot down 1 plane in his career of 50-150 sorties would still be above the average. 

So I mean realism is already kinda out of the window. Sim pilots are on average far better at shooting then most real pilots were. Even I who is a bad shot can take down enemies with quite extreme deflection shots (a skill that was rare and for average real pilots almost a mysterious skills to have)

[Reflected]

Mind you, in my campaigns at least half the bombers are set to 'hold fire' because too many users were complaining about performance hit when all of the gunners opened fire at once.

[Hog_driver]

@Gunfreak - yes, I agree, that's why I opened this topic.

@Reflected - thanks for the information. In the Jagdflieger campaign, my performance was rather poor (few bombers shot down, if any). It was in a single mission outside of any campaign when I became an ace in a day

 

[Bremspropeller]

The fact that "Herausschüsse" (shooting a bomber out of the formation) and "final destruction" of a Viermot gave you points for the Ritterkreuz, should tell a story.

You'd normally not stick around the bombers and try to shoot down more for several reasons:

- escort fighters lingering in the vicinity

- you spent a good deal of your gas just climbing to altitude and getting to the point of intercept - your air base may be 30mins away at reduced power settings (not too much fuel aboard the german fighters)

- the emotional and psychological drain of attacking a formation of 600-800 bombers with maybe 20-25 bombers in firing range during the critical part of the attack

- the most fficient way of attacking bombers was a head-on attack,  and re-positioning after the attack (turning around, getting ahead again and turning in) ussuallytook too long and too much gas - apart from the threats above

- there's no refly button,so you'd play it little cooler and even "sore throat" pilots ("Halskrankheit" - those who were just afew kills short for the Ritterkreuz) might not be too eager to stick around, though they'd usually accept the greater risk when dealing with fighters (and frequently payed the price for it, or ther wingmen did)

Unfortunately, the website Luftwaffe.cz is down at the moment, so looking for kill-claims of the top Viermot killers isn't available atm. I'd generall expect up to two bombers killed or heavily damaged to be possible, but any more is a real exception.

The Sturmjäger later had a different tactic - approaching from behind with increased armor and more firepower. They might have a couple of multi-kill missions. But generally, I'd still not expect to see three Viermots killed in a singe mission too often. Rather combinations of kills, HSS and final destructions.

[Hog_driver]

Thank you Bremspropeller, these are interesting facts.

I thought that in my "war winning" mission I might just got lucky and got rookie AI in the bombers, so I've made some more tests.

As before, the mission is a modified Bomber Intercept mission from the Channel map.

I replaced the Bf-109 with Anton with anti-bomber, HE ammo.

I attacked from 6 o'clock because I'm not good enough to hit anything with frontal, slashing attacks.

The enemy force consisted of 12 B-17s (3 x 4), no escort.

With bomber AI set to Rookie, I shot down 6 then had to bail out due to damage.

With AI set to Ace, I shot down 5 bombers, had to bail out. Anyway, not bad, one fighter lost for 5 bombers.

I think that it's a bit too easy to set the B-17 on fire. It's fun, but not realistic I'm afraid.

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Hog_driver

[Bremspropeller]

I just took a plunge into my wall of books and I stumbled about this curious little fact:

07 January 1944: Egon Mayer (Kommodore JG 2, inventor of the frontal attack tactic) claimed four Viermots (3x B-24, 1x B-17) this day within a time of about ten minutes (13:05 through 13:16, his victories 95 through 98) according to Jochen Prien's Jagdfliegerverbände (Vol 13/IV p.169). I cross-checked this with Eric Mombeek's JG 2 unit history, which also has an entry of four kills by Mayer this day, the last kill clocked at 13:18, though. It also has the information of being killed at an altitude 1500m, which indicates a "final destruction". Mayer would have been flying a plain-Jane Fw 190A-6 or A-7 at the time, not extra guns or armor.

Those four kills are also reflected in Donald Caldwell's DAY FIGHTERS (p.179).

There's probably a few more of those curiosities, but I think this serves well enough as an initial data-set to answer the question.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

25 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

Thank you Bremspropeller, these are interesting facts.

I thought that in my "war winning" mission I might just got lucky and got rookie AI in the bombers, so I've made some more tests.

As before, the mission is a modified Bomber Intercept mission from the Channel map.

I replaced the Bf-109 with Anton with anti-bomber, HE ammo.

The enemy force consisted of 12 B-17s (3 x 4), no escort.

With bomber AI set to Rookie, I shot down 6 then had to bail out due to damage.

With AI set to Ace, I shot down 5 bombers, had to bail out. Anyway, not bad, one fighter lost for 5 bombers.

I think that it's a bit too easy to set the B-17 on fire. It's fun, but not realistic I'm afraid.

The difference between being there IRL with bullets coming towards you, while having a refly button on the sim is definitive in so many cases. I always thought a game could never fully depict a real life experience in flight sims without that component. We should have to fly exclusive missions and campaigns were every time you die you start over everything again, so people would care more about trying to survive, yet unrealistic since even with that one could start over as many times as wanted building knowledge and experience which is a chance RL pilots didn't have. Yet, if it were forced to be like that people would complain about low playability, about it to be boring and what not, so in the end no simulation could fully simulate that.

We got what we got in the confort of our homes in front of a PC. I really like the opportunity DCS gives us to experience so many things just on a PC, the FMs, systems and physics specially, now complex weather and more things are getting better and some more are expected, but whatever it is still it's pretty understandable you can't fully replicate 100% of the real experience and differences, even huge differences on some aspect, should be expected. After all, we take so many risks in the confort at home nobody would take IRL.

[Hog_driver]

I guess this scenario is much more realistic in the Kurfurst because I quickly run out of ammo and have no chance to "spray and pray" at more bombers.

Once I attacked a B-17 from its 6 o'clock and got hit, then I realised that there was another bomber at my 3 o'clock, I almost flew in formation with it and it was firing at me.

I sometimes suck so bad at this game that it's depressing...

[Hog_driver]

24 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I just took a plunge into my wall of books and I stumbled about this curious little fact:

07 January 1944: Egon Mayer (Kommodore JG 2, inventor of the frontal attack tactic) claimed four Viermots (3x B-24, 1x B-17) this day within a time of about ten minutes (13:05 through 13:16, his victories 95 through 98) according to Jochen Prien's Jagdfliegerverbände (Vol 13/IV p.169). I cross-checked this with Eric Mombeek's JG 2 unit history, which also has an entry of four kills by Mayer this day, the last kill clocked at 13:18, though. It also has the information of being killed at an altitude 1500m, which indicates a "final destruction". Mayer would have been flying a plain-Jane Fw 190A-6 or A-7 at the time, not extra guns or armor.

Those four kills are also reflected in Donald Caldwell's DAY FIGHTERS (p.179).

There's probably a few more of those curiosities, but I think this serves well enough as an initial data-set to answer the question.

Good to know, so maybe DCS is not as unrealistic as I was afraid it was.

[Doughguy]

The current b17s dont seem to fire from all positions atm...

So its rather easy to attack a larger formation of b17s if you dont just attack them from the 6.

Bremspropeller basically said everything, even the example of the 4 bomber kill streak. 

Dcs isnt real life. Flights are more reckless. You can restart.

And often you just had one go at the bombers when vectored in as fighters werent as powerful as later models.

Fun fact : different JG groups preffered different attack patterns. Some only attacked from the front. Others only from the back.

If vectored in from vantage point youd have a go at one group (?) of b17s with a head on and go and the next one and the next one thats comin your way etc and head home if theres no mustang on your six. Turning around one group for steady head on attack is just to costly fuel wise and makes you an excellent target for the little friends.

Best pattern tho is to attack from the bombers 2 or 10 o clock high swoop down and give a chosen bomber a good deflected burst or even multiple bombers. This is extremely deadly when a whole rotte  is performing this attack pattern simultaniously.

If you just manage to aim with your revi sights horizontal line across the b17s main fuselage and let the bomber fly right through a stream of 20mm shells its gonna kill vital crew.

But it required a fair amount of skill handling your machine flying against a hailstorm of .50 cal bullets from 20+ b17s. in formation. Weaving through a stream lf bombers spouting lead at you. It was nerve wrecking for many pilots.  Let alone the whole process of holding steady aim in a shaking cockpit...

Dcs in that respect is very down washed experience. You cannot really simulate that. 

If dcs could, people would have ptsd.

It was an murderous ordeal theyve endured. And for this pilots of any side have my utmost respect.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Doughguy

[Art-J]

Apart from aforementioned aspects, I guess two factors have to be also considered:

a) damage model of B-17 leaves a bit to be desired, with wing fuel tanks going ablaze often if you just give them a bad look  ;

b) somewhat simplified and lackluster turbulence / general air behaviour simulation. Looking at some extra rare guncam vids the honorable hw97 uploaded on his awesome channel recently...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbu7AhwGbj0

... one can see the real pilots seemed to have more trouble with aiming and keeping the bombers steadily in sights compared to us, let along landing good hits. Yeah, we've got "wake turbulence" option to spice things up a liitle... but we also all know what happens with framerate when we turn it on with more than a few AI planes flying in formation.

[Reflected]

I tend to agree that WW2 bomber DM needs more work in DCS. They are easily set on fire. Same for the JU-88. A few bursts and long flames come from the wing tanks, but it keeps flying, then slowly spirals down.

Another thing is that the escort fighters have an 'escort' task in my missions. Now I've tested some of these intercept missions again and strangely all Mustangs just dove to the deck to tangle with the fighters, so there I am left alone with the bombers every time. This task probably also needs work, this is not how escort fighters should behave.

Once you have escort fighters around it's really just one pass - haul @ss. Not to mention that IRL you probably had to fly longer distances before you could intercept, so you didn't have so much fuel to play with either.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Reflected

[BuzzLine]

32 minutes ago, Reflected said:

there I am left alone with the bombers every time. This task probably also needs work, this is not how escort fighters should behave.

The coder of the 'escort' task has been watching Lucasfilm/Disney's "Red Tails", seems like.  

[Gunfreak]

On 12/4/2022 at 12:05 AM, BuzzLine said:

The coder of the 'escort' task has been watching Lucasfilm/Disney's "Red Tails", seems like.  

Just hope the developers of the me262(if it ever comes) hasn't watched that movie. People complain the 30mm is weak in DCS. In that move the main guy is hit like 20 times in the chest with 30mm and he bearly bleeds, then have like a 2 minute conversation before dying. 

[Hog_driver]

Also they would have to modify the Mustang FM a bit, to allow it to do backflips.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Hog_driver

[grafspee]

20 hours ago, Hog_driver said:

Also they would have to modify the Mustang FM a bit, to allow it to do backflips.

 

Backflip? What do you mean by that.

[Hog_driver]

29 minutes ago, grafspee said:

Backflip? What do you mean by that.

But be warned, this is an advanced tactical maneuver, only true aces can master this!

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Hog_driver

[grafspee]

No way that p51 can do this

[DB 605]

7 minutes ago, grafspee said:

 

What a bs. No way that p51 can do that. 

Are you sure, "red tails" is well known for being highly realistic movie

 

 

To be honest it must be one of the worst aviation movie ever done

Edited December 6, 2022 by DB 605