DLSS in DCS

[Supmua]

Am I dreaming or what.  According to the latest newsletter it will happen.  Expect huge performance jump in GPU frametimes like you see with MSFS.  This plus multi-core CPU support will make DCS exciting again.

[WipeUout]

DLSS in VR?  

[Cab]

11 minutes ago, WipeUout said:

DLSS in VR?  

Bignewy wrote in a YouTube comment that it works for him.

[dburne]

Awesome that would be great - any help we can get for VR performance will be much appreciated.

[ackattacker]

1 hour ago, WipeUout said:

DLSS in VR?  

Dlss works with msfs in vr no reason it couldn't work in DCS with proper coding.

[some1]

People may confuse two things. The Frame Generation feature introduced in DLSS3 for RTX4000 series cards will not work in VR. But the DLSS itself (antialiasing and upscaling) works just fine. It may not produce image quality to your liking, but that's another matter. 

[despinoza]

Would be a dream come true... For now just a dream

 

i just saw the 2023 and beyond... i eat my words.

 

Thanks ED

Edited January 7, 2023 by despinoza

[SharpeXB]

20 hours ago, some1 said:

People may confuse two things. The Frame Generation feature introduced in DLSS3 for RTX4000 series cards will not work in VR. But the DLSS itself (antialiasing and upscaling) works just fine. It may not produce image quality to your liking, but that's another matter. 

There would be no point to additional frame generation in VR via the GPU. That’s what ASW etc does. DLSS 3.0 is rather like that but for 2D

[Slammin]

I don't like DLSS in msfs even though I can get great fps with it.  It just looks crappy compared to TAA. I'll take the fps hit rather than the ugly.

[Voyager]

I'm interested is seeing what DLSS 2 and FSR 2 can do for performance. 

I'm also hoping we could get foveated DLSS/FSR. Even fixed foveated provides noticable improvements in performance without costing center view precision. 

Frame generation is a different beast. I expect they'll get it working in VR, but I'd have to see it myself to decide whether or not I would like it. From the reviews I've seen, it sounds like you really need a 80-90 fps already for it to work well.

[Supmua]

There’re recent mods for example SkyrimVR upscaler that include upscaling techs such as DLSS2, FSR, NIS with fixed foveated rendering within the same package. So this is definitely doable, and it also works incredibly well.  For example, in Skyrim VR I’m able to run max res on my Aero with fps >90 with complete elimination of shimmering on objects such as grass and foliages.

I’m not sure if and how DLSS3 will work in VR as reprojection is already a type of frame generation.  DLSS3 from my own personal experience works quite well in nonVR games when coupled with low latency tech such as NVIDIA Reflex though.  These AI techs are beneficial and will keep getting better with time. 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Supmua

[Mr_sukebe]

On 1/8/2023 at 12:17 AM, Slammin said:

I don't like DLSS in msfs even though I can get great fps with it.  It just looks crappy compared to TAA. I'll take the fps hit rather than the ugly.

Did you use it with DLAA?  If not, give it a try. 
I found DLSS not looking so good on its own.  Changing to DLSS and DLAA really improved things 

[despinoza]

Also DLSS, at least in other titles, manage shimmering better than MSAA. Looking forward to test it

[VirusAM]

Did you use it with DLAA?  If not, give it a try. 
I found DLSS not looking so good on its own.  Changing to DLSS and DLAA really improved things 

DLAA is a separate option in msfs?
I thought it was already packaged when selecting one of the dlss options

[Mr_sukebe]

57 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

DLAA is a separate option in msfs?
I thought it was already packaged when selecting one of the dlss options

I don’t believe so.  I’m pretty sure that I could select other options. 
I’ll check the next time I use FS

[Mr_sukebe]

Just taken a scan at FS2020. 

Yep, you're correct, it's either DLSS or MSAA/TAA

The DLAA option is in addition to the DLSS/MSAA choice and has a variety of settings.  

[Stefem]

On 1/7/2023 at 7:11 PM, SharpeXB said:

There would be no point to additional frame generation in VR via the GPU. That’s what ASW etc does. DLSS 3.0 is rather like that but for 2D

VR reprojection and DLSS 3 Frame Generation are different both in scope and working, reprojected frames looks like crap and are only created when the next frame will miss the framtime target because even if look bad is better than a missed frame, DLSS 3 generated frames looks really good and they are created after each rendered frames

[Rifter]

20 hours ago, Stefem said:

VR reprojection and DLSS 3 Frame Generation are different both in scope and working, reprojected frames looks like crap and are only created when the next frame will miss the framtime target because even if look bad is better than a missed frame, DLSS 3 generated frames looks really good and they are created after each rendered frames

VR motion reprojection is a ‘forward looking’ motion estimation method. It needs the video encoder block of the GPU to do so.  Since motion reprojection is done asynchronously (in parallel to the application) it has no impact on CPU or GPU tasks. Hence the Oculus/Meta expression 'Asynchronous Space Warp'. It is until today the best method of creating additional frames for VR with repect to latency.

DLSS3 is a ‘backwards looking’ interpolation method which creates significantly increased latency. I lack the imagination how that could be compensated. Spatial reprojection is for sure no solution because that won’t work for longer time periods. DLSS3 is only for pancake.

[some1]

nvidia optical flow engine, the same used in DLSS3 frame generation can also be used for forward estimation (extrapolation). They even mention VR applications on their website.

https://developer.nvidia.com/opticalflow-sdk

However, since VR is not the next big thing any more, integrating it with VR software from various vendors is probably not very high on priority list at nvidia. Besides, I'm not even sure if it will produce much better results than what we have now in the form of reprojection.

[Rifter]

12 hours ago, some1 said:

They even mention VR applications on their website.

Yes, they link to Meta and their Asynchronous Spacewarp 2.0 (quite old by now) to make clear that creating additional frames in VR is job of the VR software stack and not of Nvidia. Which makes totally sense since Nvidia happily leaves it to the VR headset makers to handle those silly and erratic user head movements for temporal reprojection.

12 hours ago, some1 said:

https://developer.nvidia.com/opticalflow-sdk

However, since VR is not the next big thing any more, integrating it with VR software from various vendors is probably not very high on priority list at nvidia. Besides, I'm not even sure if it will produce much better results than what we have now in the form of reprojection.

What I read in your source:
Nvidia ’Optical Flow’ functionality has been heavily optimised, which means: All motion reprojection done within the VR software (which always relied on optical flow estimation) now gets even better. Good news! But nothing new here technology wise and no whatsoever reference to DLSS3.

What I don’t read:
We can expect to leave behind the VR software stack (Oculus, SteamVR, …) in favour of Nvidia DLSS3 as an alternative for VR motion reprojection to lead us all into the promised land of high VR frame rates by having Nvidia unfold its magic for extrapolated VR frames without getting a latency price tag on it.

[Lurker]

On 1/6/2023 at 10:45 PM, some1 said:

People may confuse two things. The Frame Generation feature introduced in DLSS3 for RTX4000 series cards will not work in VR. But the DLSS itself (antialiasing and upscaling) works just fine. It may not produce image quality to your liking, but that's another matter. 

No matter how many times this is brought up, people will expect this to be the miracle "pill" that fixes DCS VR performance. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lurker

[some1]

10 minutes ago, Rifter said:

But nothing new here technology wise and no whatsoever reference to DLSS3.

What I'm saying is that the hardware on the nvidia GPUs and the underlying software (to some extent) can support frames extrapolation. No, it's not part of DLSS3, which in turn is an umbrella marketing term for several different technologies. I can use DLSS3 Frame Generation on without DLSS upscaling, or DLSS without Frame Generation, in some games I can also use DLAA instead of DLSS. 

[Pride37]

23 hours ago, some1 said:

nvidia optical flow engine, the same used in DLSS3 frame generation can also be used for forward estimation (extrapolation). They even mention VR applications on their website.

https://developer.nvidia.com/opticalflow-sdk

However, since VR is not the next big thing any more, integrating it with VR software from various vendors is probably not very high on priority list at nvidia. Besides, I'm not even sure if it will produce much better results than what we have now in the form of reprojection.

Well, the good news is @mbucchia is already working on taking advantage of nVidia Optical Flow:

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/openxr-toolkit-upscaling-world-scale-hand-tracking-release-thread/493924/3034?u=mbucchia

Take a look at the results, it's pretty impressive. For what I understand, it's a direct optimization in WMR, which means you have to run a WMR headset on an RTX card.

Hope it will come soon (and works with DCS)...

Edited February 15, 2023 by Pride37
Typo

[mbucchia]

On 2/14/2023 at 2:59 PM, some1 said:

nvidia optical flow engine, the same used in DLSS3 frame generation can also be used for forward estimation (extrapolation). They even mention VR applications on their website.

Yes, and what you're describing is the usage for motion reprojection. It is possible for VR platform vendors to use NV Optical Flow to improve the quality of motion reprojection drastically. See the other post shared by @Pride37 right above explaining how I am doing this for WMR platforms.

You can read my explanation of how motion reprojection works here: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/motion-reprojection-explained/548659?u=mbucchia. NV Optical Flow can be used to greatly improve the motion estimation phase of the algorithm.

In all cases, this remains completely different from DLSS3 frame generation, which interpolates between 2 already rendered frames, as pointed out by @Rifter. Sure both use the same method for estimating motion between 2 images, but forward propagation (used in motion reprojection) is much more complex and less forgiving (hence the artifacts).

The issue with DLSS frame generation (and backward reprojection in general) is latency, which I have detailed in great amounts here: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/will-dlss-3-0-be-supported-in-vr-msfs/543836/47?u=mbucchia

Personally, I don't see any easy path today to get DLSS 3 frame generation in VR, because the added latency is just too much. I expect it would take significant rework of any game engine and/or VR platform to support it. At which point, today's motion reprojection techniques are simply more attractive, especially if they leverage the power of NV Optical Flow.

 

11 hours ago, Rifter said:

Nvidia ’Optical Flow’ functionality has been heavily optimised, which means: All motion reprojection done within the VR software (which always relied on optical flow estimation) now gets even better. Good news!

This is however not accurate. NV Optical Flow doesn't come for free. It needs to be implemented by each vendor in their motion reprojection algorithm. Most implementations today either rely on Direct3D motion estimator or the NVENC SDK, both are generic motion vector engines and they are not capable of leveraging the Optical Flow capabilities (in other words:  neither of them get any "free" benefit from Optical Flow).

For reference, it took me quite a few weeks of on/off work to replace our usage of the D3D motion estimator with the NV Optical Flow in WMR (but unreleased at this time).

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by mbucchia

[j9murphy]

@mbucchia  Does this tool give us any uplift once DCS supports DLSS (assuming the rumor is true that DLSS is being implemented in DCS)?  The tool essentially allows any DLSS game to use DLAA.

https://hothardware.com/news/plugin-enable-dlaa-in-dlss-games