What exactly can the WSO do that the pilot can't

[YoYo]

Unfortunately, you still don't understand that these are two different things. EOT.

[Scott-S6]

4 hours ago, PD919 said:

Based off what was explained here, the RIO/WSO is not necessary for the Strike Eagle to operate.  Maybe you have to jump in the backseat for a second to start one of the systems or something, and then you can do everything from the cockpit.  F-14 is literally impossible to use without a RIO.  RIO aligns the INS.  RIO does all of the radar work in BVR, etc.  I'm assuming the Phantom needs the RIO like the F-14.  

Not even that. RAZBAM have confirmed that the handful of startup functions that have to be performed by the WSO will have pilot seat keybinds.

Full functionality will be available from the pilot seat. This is a massive difference between the F15E and other two seat modules which YoYo keeps avoiding.

[Deano87]

@YoYo the aircraft is fully flyable from

the front seat. There is no reason to jump into the back seat except for a few startup things. The reason there is a WSO there in real life is helping manage the extra workload of high intensity tasks like analysing a radar patch map and picking a ground target while the pilot in the front is running the AA radar and protecting the aircraft from air threats. A basic AI WSO won’t be able to do that. 

[Topo]

3 minutes ago, Deano87 said:

...like analysing a radar patch map and picking a ground target while the pilot in the front is running the AA radar...

Is it possible to use AG radar in a seat and AA radar in the other position? I ask because sound strange to me...

[Deano87]

13 minutes ago, Topo said:

Is it possible to use AG radar in a seat and AA radar in the other position? I ask because sound strange to me...

You’re right. The radar can only function in one mode at a time (unlike modern AESA magic) but as far as I understand it, it is possible to take a high res patch map of an AG target, freeze the patch map on the screen then hand the radar to the other crewman. Then while the radar itself is back in AA mode, the WSO can be looking at the frozen patch map display and designate a ground target on it, then slave to the TPOD to it, and the pilot can be looking at the AA radar and checking for air threats. The radar only needs to be scanning in AG mode while creating the patch, and then once it’s frozen it can go back to AA mode. At least this is what I’ve gathered from lots of F-15E interviews and picking the brains of F-15E aircrew.

[Topo]

1 minute ago, Deano87 said:

You’re right. The radar can only function in one mode at a time (unlike modern AESA magic) but as far as I understand it, it is possible to take a high res patch map of an AG target, freeze the patch map on the screen then hand the radar to the other crewman. Then while the radar itself is back in AA mode, the WSO can be looking at the frozen patch map display and designate a ground target on it, then slave to the TPOD to it, and the pilot can be looking at the AA radar and checking for air threats. The radar only needs to be scanning in AG mode while creating the patch, and then once it’s frozen it can go back to AA mode. At least this is what I’ve gathered from lots of F-15E interviews and picking the brains of F-15E aircrew.

Ok thanks, that's as I assumed.

[VpR81]

On 1/14/2023 at 4:40 PM, YoYo said:

This is not an excuse because RIO has been in every EA and Im sure it will be in HB F-4E from the beginning of EA as well.

I do understand your disappointment but as far as i remember, there haven´t been any plans for a WSO originally. RAZBAM later added this as a planned feature iirc, so i think we can all be happy that we are getting a WSO for the Strike Eagle at all. Even if it comes later in EA. And until the WSO is implemented, just enjoy that stunning aircraft with a friend as WSO. Honestly, i think that is what most people looking forward to: Finally a 4th gen. strike fighter with multicrew capabilities.

[cfrag]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:31 PM, VpR81 said:

Honestly, i think that is what most people looking forward to: Finally a 4th gen. strike fighter with multicrew capabilities.

Given the fact that most people fly solo (even if they fly on MP servers), I think most are simply looking forward for an awesome strike fighter. The fact that it can also multicrew is just the icing on the cake for those select few of us who actually do MP and MC. 

I'm truly looking forward for this bird 

 

[Catseye]

As far as comms and functions of the WSO, I do NOT want an emersion breaker like the process used in DCS's F-14 model to communicate with the WSO. That is why I don't fly the DCS F-14.

Quite happy with flying solely from the front seat.

 

[sirrah]

15 minutes ago, Catseye said:

As far as comms and functions of the WSO, I do NOT want an emersion breaker like the process used in DCS's F-14 model to communicate with the WSO. That is why I don't fly the DCS F-14.

Quite happy with flying solely from the front seat.

 

You're not alone in that opinion about the F-14. I pre-purchased the Tomcat and although Heatblur did a mind-blowingly good job on this iconic jet, the micromanagement of Jester AI is one of the main reasons that module never truly got me hooked. I don't regret buying it, but it did make me more alert that new multicrew modules might not be for me.

I'm confident that Razbam will come up with a smart WSO AI communication interface. As far as we even need one

[strikeeagle]

On 1/6/2023 at 7:49 PM, Deano87 said:

As I understand it, There are a few switches and systems that need to be powered up in the back (there will likely be keybindings or some solution for turning those on from the front when flying solo). But apart from the obvious disadvantage of being one brain and 2 eyeballs down, you should be able to employ all systems/weapons from the front seat. 

There is nothing in the back that’s not in the front.  The pilot can operate all of the Strikes sensors themselves if they had to.

[Lace]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:02 PM, Nahen said:

A bit off topic, but for anyone interested, this is over beautiful Northumberland.  The reservoir is Fontburn https://goo.gl/maps/BsMCVFeA795UdkhV8, and Simonside Crags are in the background.  I know that area well, and I am often dodging F-15s out of Lakenheath.

[Deano87]

39 minutes ago, strikeeagle said:

There is nothing in the back that’s not in the front.  The pilot can operate all of the Strikes sensors themselves if they had to.

Once the jet is powered up, sure. But the TGP and EW panels are in the back to power the systems on, are they not? 

[Scott-S6]

2 hours ago, Deano87 said:

Once the jet is powered up, sure. But the TGP and EW panels are in the back to power the systems on, are they not? 

This is correct. RB have already confirmed that there will be pilot seat keybinds for them so we won't need to swap seats when flying solo but IRL you'd need to get ground crew to turn them on or something.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Scott-S6

[QuiGon]

17 hours ago, Catseye said:

As far as comms and functions of the WSO, I do NOT want an emersion breaker like the process used in DCS's F-14 model to communicate with the WSO. That is why I don't fly the DCS F-14.

Quite happy with flying solely from the front seat.

 

16 hours ago, sirrah said:

You're not alone in that opinion about the F-14. I pre-purchased the Tomcat and although Heatblur did a mind-blowingly good job on this iconic jet, the micromanagement of Jester AI is one of the main reasons that module never truly got me hooked. I don't regret buying it, but it did make me more alert that new multicrew modules might not be for me.

I'm confident that Razbam will come up with a smart WSO AI communication interface. As far as we even need one

I'm curious: How would you guys prefer to communicate with an AI WSO/RIO?

[sirrah]

6 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I'm curious: How would you guys prefer to communicate with an AI WSO/RIO?

Well, it's not so much the "Jester wheel" interface itself that I don't like (quite ok with that in fact), but it's the Jester micromanagement part.

I understand why Heatblur did what they did with their Jester menu, and I'm not sure how to do it differently, but all the menu's inside menus are too much for me to enjoy. It's like HB tried to make it possible to operate the entire RIO station through the Jester wheel. Personally, I'd rather wished that Jester functioned more autonomic (but again, I wouldn't know how to properly implement this without Jester doing stuff unexpectedly).

Anyway, please don't consider my opinion as a rant against Heatblur's Tomcat. They did an awesome job and I didn't regret purchasing. I just came to realize, that (although I like occasionally flying it) the interface with Jester AI is just too complicated for me to truly enjoy it.

 

[QuiGon]

22 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Well, it's not so much the "Jester wheel" interface itself that I don't like (quite ok with that in fact), but it's the Jester micromanagement part.

I understand why Heatblur did what they did with their Jester menu, and I'm not sure how to do it differently, but all the menu's inside menus are too much for me to enjoy. It's like HB tried to make it possible to operate the entire RIO station through the Jester wheel. Personally, I'd rather wished that Jester functioned more autonomic (but again, I wouldn't know how to properly implement this without Jester doing stuff unexpectedly).

That's the issue. In the end it's just an AI, in fact it's not even an AI in the strict sense of it (like ChatGP). It's a simple computer routine and making him behave autonomous like a human RIO is way beyond the ressources of DCS (3rd party) devs I'm afraid. A lot of the micromanagement functions were also added later on, as many players demanded more control over the RIO, so they can make him do what they want.
 

22 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Anyway, please don't consider my opinion as a rant against Heatblur's Tomcat. They did an awesome job and I didn't regret purchasing. I just came to realize, that (although I like occasionally flying it) the interface with Jester AI is just too complicated for me to truly enjoy it.

No worries, I was just curious about ideas how it could be done better. And btw, you don't have to use the radial menu as you can map most (all?) functions as keybinds. That can be very helpful for certain commands.

But yeah, in the end nothing beats a competent human RIO/WSO in the back. Same will be true for the F-15E!

Edited January 23, 2023 by QuiGon

[strikeeagle]

4 hours ago, Deano87 said:

Once the jet is powered up, sure. But the TGP and EW panels are in the back to power the systems on, are they not? 

No they are not.  It’s all in the front.  

[Deano87]

Just now, strikeeagle said:

No they are not.  It’s all in the front.  

You sure? What about the TGP FLIR panel behind the left WSO controller?

[strikeeagle]

24 minutes ago, Deano87 said:

You sure? What about the TGP FLIR panel behind the left WSO controller?

 

Wait I see it.  TGT FLIR.  Except that.  But the pilot can take command and steer it and fire the laser.  NAV pod control is in the front.

[Coole28]

2 hours ago, strikeeagle said:

No they are not.  It’s all in the front.  

I wish somebody would pin the FAQ document to this forum.

[RodBorza]

A little bit off-topic, but in case someone doesn't know or haven't heard about: the 10 Percent True YouTube channel brings many interesting interviews, and the most prominent character in that is Starbaby, who was a F-15 WSO. He talks a lot about his time in the USAF, lots of anecdotes, but also shows some videos of attacks he participated in.

Anyway, he talks a lot about the Pilot and WSO responsibilities. Other guy who talked a little about it recently is Max Afterburner. He is some kind of Garand Thumb of the sky, but he gives a glimpse of the division of tasks.

But basically, the WSO is head down looking at the sensors, finding the target, creating a map for it, and once target designated, the WSO gives back the radar to the pilot, who nows sets it to air-to-air. The WSO now controls the pod, finds and refines the bombs impact point, and is heads down all the way till bomb impact. All the while the pilot is heads up, looking outside for any air to air or surface to air threats.

Is is a fine example of two heads working better than one. And Starbaby's stories are very compelling, explaining how bombs miss, how to make bombs not miss, how they attack and re-attack, how they function as a flight (2, 4, 8 elements) and how they avoid ground fire.




Enviado de meu SM-A127M usando o Tapatalk

[doedkoett]

5 hours ago, RodBorza said:

..how they attack and re-attack, how they function as a flight (2, 4, 8 elements) and how they avoid ground fire.

But what about a third pass over the target?

[RodBorza]

12 hours ago, doedkoett said:

But what about a third pass over the target?

LOL. Third passes are strictly forbidden...

[draconus]

On 1/23/2023 at 12:06 PM, sirrah said:

I understand why Heatblur did what they did with their Jester menu, and I'm not sure how to do it differently, but all the menu's inside menus are too much for me to enjoy. It's like HB tried to make it possible to operate the entire RIO station through the Jester wheel. Personally, I'd rather wished that Jester functioned more autonomic (but again, I wouldn't know how to properly implement this without Jester doing stuff unexpectedly).

They just plan to redesign Jester logic into more autonomic being.

It depends on the missions you fly but I never felt I need to micromange him too much.